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-   -   Am I The Only Raptors Supporter Who Feels This Way? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/am-i-only-raptors-supporter-who-feels-way-24137.html)

MBailey85 11-28-2012 02:18 PM

Am I The Only Raptors Supporter Who Feels This Way?
 
Don't get me wrong,I love this team and have followed them since day one. Also,I apologize if this doesn't really need a thread but I need to know if I'm the only one or not.

Does the Toronto Raptors sometimes or for the most part,feel like a professional developmental or farm team for other NBA programs?

It just seems like throughout the majority of the clubs history its been one of two things or both.

1.) Players come here to pad their stats(regardless of how negatively it impacts the team) so they can earn a fat paycheck for some other franchise (Tracy Murray,Mike James,Tracy McGrady to an extent,etc..)

2.) Players come here on an over paid contract after having moderate success elsewhere only to put it in cruise control and contribute little to nothing towards the team future achievements (Hedo Turkoglu,Jason Kapono,Landry Fields,etc..)

In a nutshell the Raptors are either making players into stars or solid pros for other franchises to enjoy or taking on the dead weight from other teams at a high price usually,it seems. If this is true,how do they break this cycle or curse?

Thoughts!?!?

'trane 11-28-2012 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by @BaileysBlitz (Post 711035)
If this is true,how do they break this cycle or curse?

move the whole city across to the other side of the lake.

bozonic 11-28-2012 02:39 PM

It all starts with management...The same guyz that bring you the Leafs should not inspire a lot of confidence building a strong franchise plus they will never be big spenders...:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

bozonic 11-28-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 711037)
move the whole city across to the other side of the lake.

So you want more snow and be like Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo . You Trawna guyz need to get out more...:coolthumb:

Raptors1995 11-28-2012 03:03 PM

This is not isolated to Toronto. With lebron signing with Miami this ushered a new era, where its unlikely a player of his caliber will be coming to teams like toronto. I wouldn't just say Toronto's the problem. Past general managers, ownership, coaches, there's a lot of things we could point to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't mcgrady a Rfa when he left toronto. He wanted to leave as well, but I don't know why we didn't even start him. I remember money was also an issue hindering Grunwald. Ownership could have stepped up, instead of giving junk yard that contract. We shouldn't have let it get to that and got a better return than just picks from Orlando in a sign and trade. Even with Vince carter that trade was horrible, we got nothing decent in return. Guys pad their stats here and get good contracts elsewhere, but I still don't know why we didn't trade mike James for at least a first round pick if we didn't intend to resign him. Same with Morris Peterson and donyell Marshall we could have got at least got a late pick in return. With respect to us overpaying for free agents that's true, but colangelos known for that too. We could have easily signed Amir to 5 a year. To colangelos credit, he's good at dumping bad contracts as well. The culture did change a bit here. I remember when Babcock was here, I would keep reading about players wanting out. It's sad when a player like Aaron Williams wants out, he should be happy that he's even in the nba. Babcock didn't even want to trade him for 2 second round picks, which embry did in a heartbeat once Babcock left. I could go on, but the problem is more complex than just players not wanting to play for toronto.

'trane 11-28-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bozonic (Post 711051)
So you want more snow and be like Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo . You Trawna guyz need to get out more...:coolthumb:

i'm both a toronto and a vancouver guy. have lived in both, have family in both. and i'm not answering a 'perfect city' question or a weather question, i'm suggesting why we are often like a farm team or a team that lives on players cast off from other franchises.

bozonic 11-28-2012 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 711072)
i'm both a toronto and a vancouver guy. have lived in both, have family in both. and i'm not answering a 'perfect city' question or a weather question, i'm suggesting why we are often like a farm team or a team that lives on players cast off from other franchises.

Unfortunately the world of pro sports is the haves and have nots...History is filled with the Lakers, Celts,Yankees,Knicks, Dallas Cowboys, Chicago Bulls BHawks and Red Sox ..These large media markets will have twice or three times the payrolls and will always sign the top free agents...

I also wish Vancouver was on the other side of the border too... what is a Memphis Grizzly -- a biker dude that drinks Jack and coke or Bryant`country`Reeves ( for the younger readers, a Bargs like character that ate pies not pasta and sooze )

FLO 11-28-2012 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by @BaileysBlitz (Post 711035)
Don't get me wrong,I love this team and have followed them since day one. Also,I apologize if this doesn't really need a thread but I need to know if I'm the only one or not.

Does the Toronto Raptors sometimes or for the most part,feel like a professional developmental or farm team for other NBA programs?

It just seems like throughout the majority of the clubs history its been one of two things or both.

1.) Players come here to pad their stats(regardless of how negatively it impacts the team) so they can earn a fat paycheck for some other franchise (Tracy Murray,Mike James,Tracy McGrady to an extent,etc..)

2.) Players come here on an over paid contract after having moderate success elsewhere only to put it in cruise control and contribute little to nothing towards the team future achievements (Hedo Turkoglu,Jason Kapono,Landry Fields,etc..)

In a nutshell the Raptors are either making players into stars or solid pros for other franchises to enjoy or taking on the dead weight from other teams at a high price usually,it seems. If this is true,how do they break this cycle or curse?

Thoughts!?!?

To the first point, we can overcome this by properly evaluating players and/or tanking and making a pro draft pick for a superstar talent.

To the second point, we can fix this by not overpaying and finding a gem in the NBDL or someone coming off a bad situation on another team. An example is not signing Landry Fields and instead saving money by finding an Alan Anderson-type player or finding a gem like OJ Mayo.

I don't think there's anything sinister going on other than terrible decisions by the Raptors.

TORaptor4Ever 11-28-2012 07:48 PM

The team needs players that actually CARE about winning.... that take some pride in it and aren't just worried about their stats.

Back in the Oakley/Willis/Childs/Christie/AWill days we had players like that.

These days we don't (with the exception of Lowry I guess... and JV although he's a rook).

The Raps haven't had any strong, veteran leadership in a long, long time.

Zalgiris 11-28-2012 08:00 PM

Los Angeles Raptors would be a solution :cookie:

KoolAid 11-28-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalgiris (Post 711179)
Los Angeles Raptors would be a solution :cookie:

:cookie:

moujik 11-29-2012 08:29 AM

3) Players who buy in, show effort and improvement we send away (Marion, James Johnson, Reggie Evans, Uzoh)

DDUnreal 11-29-2012 08:42 AM

Bring back bellineli go all euro and sell the team as a cultural experience instead of a basketball team, because we can't compete in the NBA clearly.

Someguy again 11-29-2012 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moujik (Post 711688)
3) Players who buy in, show effort and improvement we send away (Marion, James Johnson, Reggie Evans, Uzoh)

I don't knwo about that lol

Marion - Never wanted to be here.

Evans - we had too many big men, besides he was one dimensional.

Uzoh - low ceiling, never returned to the NBA after that.

James Johnson - Yes he may seem like a cheap choice for the SF position but it's just that when a team like the Chicago Bulls gives him up for nothing, then the raptors, it says alot about his character (remember last year when he was removed from the rotation because of altercations with Casey?)

MBailey85 11-29-2012 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptors1995 (Post 711065)
This is not isolated to Toronto. With lebron signing with Miami this ushered a new era, where its unlikely a player of his caliber will be coming to teams like toronto. I wouldn't just say Toronto's the problem. Past general managers, ownership, coaches, there's a lot of things we could point to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't mcgrady a Rfa when he left toronto. He wanted to leave as well, but I don't know why we didn't even start him. I remember money was also an issue hindering Grunwald. Ownership could have stepped up, instead of giving junk yard that contract. We shouldn't have let it get to that and got a better return than just picks from Orlando in a sign and trade. Even with Vince carter that trade was horrible, we got nothing decent in return. Guys pad their stats here and get good contracts elsewhere, but I still don't know why we didn't trade mike James for at least a first round pick if we didn't intend to resign him. Same with Morris Peterson and donyell Marshall we could have got at least got a late pick in return. With respect to us overpaying for free agents that's true, but colangelos known for that too. We could have easily signed Amir to 5 a year. To colangelos credit, he's good at dumping bad contracts as well. The culture did change a bit here. I remember when Babcock was here, I would keep reading about players wanting out. It's sad when a player like Aaron Williams wants out, he should be happy that he's even in the nba. Babcock didn't even want to trade him for 2 second round picks, which embry did in a heartbeat once Babcock left. I could go on, but the problem is more complex than just players not wanting to play for toronto.

McGrady was a UFA but he did want out,so bad that he bailed on the courtesy meeting he had with the Raps after promising he'd atleast hear what they had to offer. I remember rumors of a deal with the Sixers involving Larry Hughes near the trade deadline of T-Mac's final year in TO. I miss guys like Mo Pete,Marshall,Alvin Williams,they all played with heart and brought it every night

lmao at the Aaron Williams and Rob Babcock part.

I don't think that it's about players not wanting to play in Toronto anymore,I think it's more of not wanting to play for a losing franchise unless they're making alot of money. I believe players actually lovethe city,what bothers them is the lack of exposure. NBA players can accept playing second fiddle to the NFL in an American market because many of them grew up watching the NFL or even playing Football,but not so much Hockey. So as much as they know Canada is a Hockey Country,deep down it irritates them that the Leafs get way more publicity in the City. Alot of Athletes have ego's and want to be talked about but the Raptors/NBA isn't covered all that much in the media.

Winning creates a hype though and a championship cures everything,this starts from drafting accurately.

MBailey85 11-29-2012 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLO (Post 711101)
To the first point, we can overcome this by properly evaluating players and/or tanking and making a pro draft pick for a superstar talent.

To the second point, we can fix this by not overpaying and finding a gem in the NBDL or someone coming off a bad situation on another team. An example is not signing Landry Fields and instead saving money by finding an Alan Anderson-type player or finding a gem like OJ Mayo.

I don't think there's anything sinister going on other than terrible decisions by the Raptors.

I agree with all points and I too don't believe anything Sinister is going on with the Raptors. I will say this,the NBA doesn't make an effort to show Raptors games on National American broadcasting networks. Maybe its ESPN and ABC's fault,but you'd think they can use a little bit of their power and influence. Not even when Bosh was a yearly All-Star and the Raps going to the playoffs or in contention for a spot. I still remember when the year we signed Hedo,the Raps had a game that was supposed to be on TNT for a Friday match vs the Knicks. After they got off to a slow start(not even that bad either)they pulled the plug on airing it for a Suns/Hawks game I believe,it was in January.

MBailey85 11-29-2012 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 711175)
The team needs players that actually CARE about winning.... that take some pride in it and aren't just worried about their stats.
Back in the Oakley/Willis/Childs/Christie/AWill days we had players like that.

These days we don't (with the exception of Lowry I guess... and JV although he's a rook).

The Raps haven't had any strong, veteran leadership in a long, long time.

Strongly agree with the bold.

To be honest,I don't see/feel a sense of urgency or frustration from any players right now but i doubt that they don't care. It actually bothered me in the loss to Charlotte that Demar was more visibly pissed off by the none fouled call on Bargnani than what Andrea showed. AB kind of just put his head down and walked away. The Raps definitely need more leaders. I see alot of intensity from JV and think he's shown more than anyone else that he cares(imo).

moujik 11-29-2012 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Someguy again (Post 711703)
I don't knwo about that lol

Marion - Never wanted to be here.

Evans - we had too many big men, besides he was one dimensional.

Uzoh - low ceiling, never returned to the NBA after that.

James Johnson - Yes he may seem like a cheap choice for the SF position but it's just that when a team like the Chicago Bulls gives him up for nothing, then the raptors, it says alot about his character (remember last year when he was removed from the rotation because of altercations with Casey?)

When Bulls gave JJ up (for more than Toronto subsequently gave him up for), he was an unseen player who didn't have playing time.
What JJ became in one season and what he we're now learning meant for Casey's defence is miles ahead of what Chicago gave up.
With this daft logic no team should ever trade for a player, because the other team is willing to give him up, which means he's bad.

Uzoh did return for pre-season :)

Evans is onedimentional success!

Marion.. times under yoke of Christine

BballWatcher 11-29-2012 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 711175)
The team needs players that actually CARE about winning.... that take some pride in it and aren't just worried about their stats.

Back in the Oakley/Willis/Childs/Christie/AWill days we had players like that.

These days we don't (with the exception of Lowry I guess... and JV although he's a rook).

The Raps haven't had any strong, veteran leadership in a long, long time.


I agree with this assertion too.

I'm as frustrated with this team as ever; we were expected to be better than this and even possibly challenge for the 8th seed. But there's a few ridiculous gaping holes in our roster that, in hindsight, were massive red flags.

1. We have no star players.
2. We have no "tough" players
3. We have a massive, gaping hole at the 3 position
4. We don't have many "give a shit" / "can't stand to lose" players
5. Two of our rotation players, including our starting center are rookies, and raw ones at that.

plus, we've had a brutal schedule to start the season.
-------


Aside form Valanciunas, who's 20 years old and coming from the different international game, and Lowry, who is coming back from a nagging injury, we don't have guys who really give a shit. We have guys who come in and do their job but don't kill themselves if they don't win.

Unfortunately, we are stocked with guys who are talented but not that versatile and aren't consistent -- DeRozan, Calderon, Johnson, etc. We don't have a single player (aside maybe from a 100% healthy Lowry) who's a talented 2-way player and doesn't have many weaknesses.

DeRozan can't create that much off the dribble, Jose doesn't penetrate except on the odd fast break, Amir Johnson can't score when he's not in the pick and roll, Andrea is good one game then terrible the next, etc.

We also can't underestimate the fact that we have the worst, most pathetic starters at the 3 position in the league. Dominic McGuire, Alan Anderson, and a gimpy Landry Fields do NOT get the job done in a league where most teams got deeper and more talented the last couple of years. We play most of the game 4 on 5, and it shows. Why do I get giddy when McGuire or Anderson score one bucket? What the fuck is wrong with Kleiza by the way?

The past few years we've been one of those shitty, mediocre teams that's all offense so we won games when we shot the lights out, and lost the rest. We made a change to balance the team a bit more with the coach and, in theory, a couple players we picked up and we looked like we'd make teams sweat with our first few games of the season, but it all went downhill from there. We've lost two games in OT and two games by 2 points or less. Clearly we have a number of problems; closing out games is just another one of them.

DDUnreal 11-29-2012 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BballWatcher (Post 711804)
I agree with this assertion too.

I'm as frustrated with this team as ever; we were expected to be better than this and even possibly challenge for the 8th seed. But there's a few ridiculous gaping holes in our roster that, in hindsight, were massive red flags.

1. We have no star players.
2. We have no "tough" players
3. We have a massive, gaping hole at the 3 position
4. We don't have many "give a shit" / "can't stand to lose" players
5. Two of our rotation players, including our starting center are rookies, and raw ones at that.

-------


Aside form Valanciunas, who's 20 years old and coming from the different international game, and Lowry, who is coming back from a nagging injury, we don't have guys who really give a shit. We have guys who come in and do their job but don't kill themselves if they don't win.

Unfortunately, we are stocked with guys who are talented but not that versatile and aren't consistent -- DeRozan, Calderon, Johnson, etc. We don't have a single player (aside maybe from a 100% healthy Lowry) who's a talented 2-way player and doesn't have many weaknesses.

DeRozan can't create that much off the dribble, Jose doesn't penetrate except on the odd fast break, Amir Johnson can't score when he's not in the pick and roll, Andrea is good one game then terrible the next, etc.

We also can't underestimate the fact that we have the worst, most pathetic starters at the 3 position in the league. Dominic McGuire, Alan Anderson, and a gimpy Landry Fields do NOT get the job done in a league where most teams got deeper and more talented the last couple of years. We play most of the game 4 on 5, and it shows. Why do I get giddy when McGuire or Anderson score one bucket? What the fuck is wrong with Kleiza by the way?

Cannot agree more.


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