Alvin Williams: I don't think they ever should have booed Vince
Old 11-02-2009, 08:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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"I don't think they ever should have booed Vince," says Raptors assistant coach Alvin Williams, Carter's former teammate. "But it's routine, now."

Williams is in many ways Carter's opposite. When he was introduced before the home opener, the place roared for the guy who admits "to me, I was a mediocre player." But Williams maximized himself until his knee wore out, whereas Carter floated on the magic carpet of his talent until his patience with management wore out. Remember, he was upset that the Raptors hired Rob Babcock, a position with which no reasonable Raptors fan will disagree.

"It was just a bad thing all the way around," says Williams. "He wasn't appreciated [by teammates and coaches], and he wasn't used the correct way. It wasn't handled the right way, definitely."

So maybe after all these years, it's time for Raptors fans to relinquish past grievances. Maybe Vince was just a basketball adolescent here who grew up when he got to New Jersey. Maybe his accomplishments here should be remembered.

"Unfortunately, things happened the way they happened, but Vince gave this city a lot," says Williams. "I think he put a lot of hard work into being here. He helped turn this team, this city, into what they are. But fans like loyalty. I guess they feel like he wasn't as loyal, but this is a business, and there's not much loyalty in this business."

Williams knows. When the Raptors bought him out in 2006, they waited a whole 10 minutes before handing his No. 20 to Fred Jones. But he got over that, and came back, and everybody's happy. Maybe that's the template for how peace in our time can be achieved.

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Old 11-02-2009, 09:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Was boogie really upset about the Raptors giving Fred Jones his number?
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Good analysis... I'm sure Raptor players are embarassed by the reaction Carter gets... it's a "Loser's" mentality as the article states.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:21 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The fans boo Vince not because he left, but due to how he left. More than one player has felt they were given a raw deal through the course of NBA history but how many of them have demanded a trade and then gone on to tank games and even tell the opposing team what his team was going to be running in a game deciding moment? Vince entered Toronto a hero and left a villain due to his own selfishness and flaws in character. He tarnished his own name here. If he left while taking the high road, the professional road, then he would not be facing the hatred he sees when he walks onto the floor of the ACC.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:59 AM   #5 (permalink)
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WWWW Wait a sec is Williams compairing him self to Carter?

VC was too good to be true, and when he gave up on our team the City gave up on him for the rest of his life I think.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
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you play as hard as you can, game in and game out and you will be well respected in toronto.
you have to work with what you got, and clearly vince was tired of that lol
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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This does sorta show just how wrong we can all be in our own minds about things. At least with myself, I would have figured that Alvin would never be so quick to defend the guy. The dramas that play out in our heads can be just that.
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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This does sorta show just how wrong we can all be in our own minds about things. At least with myself, I would have figured that Alvin would never be so quick to defend the guy. The dramas that play out in our heads can be just that.
I think ALvin saying such comments as a teammate or appose to a coach are quite different. I wouldn't think Alvin would say such comments in the tenure of his career
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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That's a good point about Babcock. On that level, I certainly agree with VC
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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That's a good point about Babcock. On that level, I certainly agree with VC
+1

Keeping the Babcock factor in mind is important for understanding how the Carter situation went down hill. In order to understand a person's mindset, you have to try and look at it from their perspective. I'm not saying that Carter's behaviour was appropriate; he certainly could have handled things better, as Apollo already stated. Having said that, I do think that Carter had reasons to be pissed off.

1) the organization appeared to be playing musical chairs with the coaches. Personally, I don't think KO did a terrible job. If Jalen hadn't broken his hand, and Bowen hadn't stepped under Carter's foot during that Spurs game at home, the Raps might have squeaked into the 2004 playoffs (seriously, that injury to Carter against the Spurs foreshadowed the rest of the season. The Raps were .500 and beating the Spurs and then Bowen came along). I would have given KO another year. Correct me if I am wrong, but KO got the team to play decent defensive without fighting Carter, right?

2) I can understand Carter's desire to want DR. J as a GM, since they shared a similar philosophy. Even if DR. J was unproven and Carter was meddling, hiring DR. J may actually have helped the Raps at that point. Do I need to remind people that Iggy was available to us in the 2004 draft? He went # 9 Of course, there's no guarantee DR. J would have taken him. But I highly doubt he would have taken Haffa. I remember all the analysts going "WTF?". The TV coverage kept talking about Beidrins being the best available big at that spot.

3) Aside from Haffa, there were some other poor personnel decisions. Alston might be a good point guard right now, but at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season, he was a total chucker. It actually worked great in the first couple of games, but you could see that it was pissing off Carter. Alston did not get Carter touches. Alston actually neglected Jalen a lot, too, early in the season. At least I remember thinking that, but I could be wrong.

4) Babcock hired Smitch. Now I'm not going to start bashing Smitch, but, from Carter's perspective, I can see how this was annoying on numerous levels.

Again, Carter's behaviour was poor, but all these things may have contributed to him being so immature.
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:44 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Dr.J has been trying to become a GM for a while now and no takers...That should tell you something.

The issue developed far before Babcock arrived. The problem was that ever since the year before Carter's contract extension the team was catering to Carter's wishes. He was given far too much say. His mother was in the ear of Grunwald and Peddie for fuck sakes. She had a better parking spot than some of the players! They catered to his whims and as a result they made a lot of poor decisions... You know, like giving JYD and Alvin Williams huge contracts. JYD was blatantly overpaid at the time. It was obvious. Alvin wasn't so obvious to us but they knew he had some health issues/riskS and they gave him the lengthy contract anyway to keep him here to keep Carter happy so that he would sign the extension. They also overpaid for Davis... They made more poor moves as well... Anyway, in 2003 they finally started to wise up after it was obvious that they had placed themselves in a huge hole. That year they went against Carter's public wishes and drafted Chris Bosh. Then in the off-season of 2004 they followed it up but not signing Dr. J, a man who had ZERO front office experience, to be their GM. I don't care what you think about Babcock, it would have been stupid to bring in Dr. J to lead the show. That's ridiculous. Anyway, that move was one of the final tipping points that sent Carter over the edge. I strongly believe that if they had not given into Carter to begin with they would have not ended up in the hole without draft picks for the sake of watching Lamond Murray ride the pine and fuck with the locker room chemistry and also not have ended up seeing a cap number that soared to close to $90M with dick all to show for it besides a group over unmovable contracts. No franchise should never, ever, let the player call the shots off the court. That includes LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, whoever. Their thing is winning basketball games, not building strong ball clubs. You don't see Tim Duncan in the ear of Spurs brass hinting he may leave if they don't go out and deal some picks for a fucking idiot like Murray or if they don't give an end of the rotation player like JYD five or six years @ $7M/yr to dive for loose balls and grab some boards. No, Duncan knows his role. He helps guide the players, who his team feels fit, to something meaningful.

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Old 11-02-2009, 10:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
Dr.J has been trying to become a GM for a while now and no takers...That should tell you something.

The issue developed far before Babcock arrived. The problem was that ever since the year before Carter's contract extension the team was catering to Carter's wishes. He was given far too much say. His mother was in the ear of Grunwald and Peddie for fuck sakes. She had a better parking spot than some of the players! They catered to his whims and as a result they made a lot of poor decisions... You know, like giving JYD and Alvin Williams huge contracts. JYD was blatantly overpaid at the time. It was obvious. Alvin wasn't so obvious to us but they knew he had some health issues/riskS and they gave him the lengthy contract anyway to keep him here to keep Carter happy so that he would sign the extension. They also overpaid for Davis... They made more poor moves as well... Anyway, in 2003 they finally started to wise up after it was obvious that they had placed themselves in a huge hole. That year they went against Carter's public wishes and drafted Chris Bosh. Then in the off-season of 2004 they followed it up but not signing Dr. J, a man who had ZERO front office experience, to be their GM. I don't care what you think about Babcock, it would have been stupid to bring in Dr. J to lead the show. That's ridiculous. Anyway, that move was one of the final tipping points that sent Carter over the edge. I strongly believe that if they had not given into Carter to begin with they would have not ended up in the hole without draft picks for the sake of watching Lamond Murray ride the pine and fuck with the locker room chemistry and also not have ended up seeing a cap number that soared to close to $90M with dick all to show for it besides a group over unmovable contracts. No franchise should never, ever, let the player call the shots off the court. That includes LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, whoever. Their thing is winning basketball games, not building strong ball clubs. You don't see Tim Duncan in the ear of Spurs brass hinting he may leave if they don't go out and deal some picks for a fucking idiot like Murray or if they don't give an end of the rotation player like JYD five or six years @ $7M/yr to dive for loose balls and grab some boards. No, Duncan knows his role. He helps guide the players, who his team feels fit, to something meaningful.
Apollo, I actually agree with almost everything you're saying. Given the context of my post (which is important to remember), I was looking at reasons Carter was angry. It is true that a lot of stupid moves were made during the Grunwald years, but Carter himself wouldn't be upset about moves he was on board with, even if they failed. I was looking at why he might have been pissed. Everybody already knows why Rap fans and management were/are pissed with Carter and his Mom. Again, the context of my post is important. I was looking at Carter's perspective and why he might be pissed off. A lot of the stuff you highlighted are examples of him getting his way, which wouldn't piss him off. Having said that, I'll concede that he may have been angry earlier because of the drafting of Bosh. He did a bit of flip flopping on that, though. He said some nice things about Bosh before the draft. If I remember correctly, Seattle was offering a deal and Carter heard about it and found it attractive. Obviously, Grunwald ultimately made the right choice by going with Bosh.

In my comments about Dr. J I was speculating a bit. Yeah, nobody will give Dr. J a job, but the clippers let Elgin Baylor run the organization into the ground for years. Getting hired doesn't mean a person is qualified. You don't know for sure until they get a chance. I'm not saying Dr. J would be a good GM, nor did I say it in my last post. What I did imply is that it's possible we'd be better off had Dr. J been the Raptor GM for 2 years, rather than Babcock hired for 2 years. It's always difficult to do a counterfactual analysis of these things because you have no way of knowing for sure how each domino would fall. One different move means two or three other things would have changed and so on and so on.

But far more importantly than that my speculation of Dr. J, I was dissapointed that KO didn't get a second year to lead the Raps, and I could see how Carter might be legitimately angry over KO's firing. I listed that ahead of Dr. J. You didn't address that, so it's possible you agree that KO deserved a second shot. I don't know.
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
Dr.J has been trying to become a GM for a while now and no takers...That should tell you something.

The issue developed far before Babcock arrived. The problem was that ever since the year before Carter's contract extension the team was catering to Carter's wishes. He was given far too much say. His mother was in the ear of Grunwald and Peddie for fuck sakes. She had a better parking spot than some of the players! They catered to his whims and as a result they made a lot of poor decisions... You know, like giving JYD and Alvin Williams huge contracts. JYD was blatantly overpaid at the time. It was obvious. Alvin wasn't so obvious to us but they knew he had some health issues/riskS and they gave him the lengthy contract anyway to keep him here to keep Carter happy so that he would sign the extension. They also overpaid for Davis... They made more poor moves as well... Anyway, in 2003 they finally started to wise up after it was obvious that they had placed themselves in a huge hole. That year they went against Carter's public wishes and drafted Chris Bosh. Then in the off-season of 2004 they followed it up but not signing Dr. J, a man who had ZERO front office experience, to be their GM. I don't care what you think about Babcock, it would have been stupid to bring in Dr. J to lead the show. That's ridiculous. Anyway, that move was one of the final tipping points that sent Carter over the edge. I strongly believe that if they had not given into Carter to begin with they would have not ended up in the hole without draft picks for the sake of watching Lamond Murray ride the pine and fuck with the locker room chemistry and also not have ended up seeing a cap number that soared to close to $90M with dick all to show for it besides a group over unmovable contracts. No franchise should never, ever, let the player call the shots off the court. That includes LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, whoever. Their thing is winning basketball games, not building strong ball clubs. You don't see Tim Duncan in the ear of Spurs brass hinting he may leave if they don't go out and deal some picks for a fucking idiot like Murray or if they don't give an end of the rotation player like JYD five or six years @ $7M/yr to dive for loose balls and grab some boards. No, Duncan knows his role. He helps guide the players, who his team feels fit, to something meaningful.
You didn't just compare the personality of Vince Carter to Tim Duncan, did you?

Apples and oranges my friend.



Every move that the Cavs or the Raptors did this summer was to keep LBJ and Chris Bosh happy. Organizations do cater to their star players. I'd argue that Anderson Varejao's $42.5 million contract was based not as a reflection of his ability, but rather a move to try to keep LBJ in Cleveland. That was the reoccurring theme of this off season. It shouldn't happen - yes. Does it happen? Frequently.

It went overboard with VC and Toronto, but who can say it doesn't happen behind the scenes elsewhere. I'm sure that in different degrees it does.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I disagree. If Bosh walks the Raptors have a very good core and the cap space to go sign another star should they not be able to seal a S&T. This is a far different situation than when the Raptors were dealing with Carter. They put all their eggs in one basket then.

If Bosh walks they're in a far better place than the Cavs are if LeBron walks.
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