All-time team - Page 3
Old 06-23-2013, 01:39 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Hehe. I really don't understand these claims. You may have forgotten that FIBA year, otherwise I just don't get your view. That was the year when all the "stars" decided to take a break and they sent a bunch of youngsters. Rose, Westbrook, Love weren't considered legit stars back then. They all broke out after that year. People were writing that team off.
If Hedo was an American and was in his prime, he'd absolutely have a chance to make that team. A shooter, a passer, tall, a good fit for FIBA game.
But it's moot, because he's not an American. He's Turkish, so he got silver that year.
I've no idea why we are talking about this tbh...

Re 07-08, I don't know why Gay was better in your view. Better offense? That's not really "subjective", that's just wrong. And Gay kind of sucked defensively early in his career. It's kind of like comparing two pieces of crap on that end. He's nothing special even now, but he's much better than he used to be.
I think Gay's best year was 10-11, maybe there's an argument for 11-12 too, btw.

Anyway, two very good starters, near all stars. Both had very similar peak seasons, but I give an edge to one of them, in large part because of his finals performance.

If this wasn't a Raptors forum where Gay is now some sort of Messiah to some people, while Hedo is a curse word, it wouldn't seem controversial.

In the big picture, neither of them is a legit star. So it's TMac/Shawn Marion, if we are talking primes.
Trust me I didn't forget it I'm a huge fan of international ball!
Durant was coming from one if the best seasons, Rose was hottest PG in the league. Agree about Love and Westbrook.. not sure why you brought them up though, only Durant and Granger was direct competition at SF.. maybe Iggy too.
don't remember anyone writing USA off, they are so much more talented than any other NT team.
If you look up RG's and HT's stats of 2007-2008 season offensive numbers are very very similar, you could make a case for either. Defense not even close, RG easily takes it.
Gay's clutch is what puts him in the next level for me, and he clearly had better overall career while being younger.
but yea Tmac and Marion takes it over Gay and TurkishGlue
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:43 AM   #42 (permalink)
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How the hell is JV up there he didn't prove anything yet, since when is potential alone is enough to be amongst the best?
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:26 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I don't see any case re 2008. Gay played bad defense and scored a bunch of points on a 22 wins team with a considerably lesser efficiency and considerably less passing than Hedo. And even the "bunch of points" is just 0.5 points more than Hedo, so...

I can see a case for 2011 Gay, I think peak Gay and peak Hedo are comparable (peak Gay being 2011 or 2012, when he started to defend more) -- but I give an edge Hedo, in part because of some great playoff performances.

That said, Gay is young. His peak years may still be ahead.

Re national teams, again, I've no clue why we are even talking about it. I thought that maybe you were thinking of the 2008 "redeem team" instead of the 2010 team. But if it's the 2010 team that was mostly borderline all stars and non all stars, then there shouldn't be an argument.

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Old 06-23-2013, 02:57 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I don't see any case whatsoever re 2008. Gay played bad defense and scored a bunch of points on a 22 wins team with a considerably lesser efficiency and considerably less passing than Hedo. And even the "bunch of points" is just 0.5 points more than Hedo, so...
His FG % was better, his rebounding was better, and every single defensive stat was better so..

I can see a case for 2011 Gay, I think peak Gay and peak Hedo are comparable (peak Gay being 2011 or 2012, when he started to defend more) -- but I give an edge Hedo, in part because of some great playoff performances.
I think he got some great looks because of Dwight, but than again Memphis isn't too shabby either.

That said, Gay is young. His peak years may still be ahead.
Lets put it this way would you take Hedo over Gay? because this suppose to best player and I just don't see how career vise it's comparable at all. One season maybe..
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:04 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Lets put it this way would you take Hedo over Gay? because this suppose to best player and I just don't see how career vise it's comparable at all. One season maybe..
I was replying to a post that was talking about prime. Not career, not longevity, not Raptors career. Just how good a guy was at his prime.
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:07 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I was replying to a post that was talking about prime. Not career, not longevity, not Raptors career. Just how good a guy was at his prime.
I don't even remember anymore it's 3:07 am
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:45 AM   #47 (permalink)
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This franchise is shit, if guys like Lowry and gay, who barely been here a season and in that season achieved mediocrity for this team, yet still make the all time Raptors team.. on anyone's list..


That or our fans are stupid and are as dumb as :therock:s..
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:56 AM   #48 (permalink)
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This franchise is shit, if guys like Lowry and gay, who barely been here a season and in that season achieved mediocrity for this team, yet still make the all time Raptors team.. on anyone's list..


That or our fans are stupid and are as dumb as :therock:s..
3..2..1..
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:37 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I think the criteria needs to change, true Raptors only, not guys who spent a couple of years and fucked off, or guys who went through weren't good and became good some where else ie chauncy billups

Jose Calderon, Alvin Williams, T.J Ford
Vince Carter, Anthon Parker, Demar Derozan
Mo Pete, JYD, Tracy Mcgrady
Chris Bosh, Andrea Bargnani, Amir Johnson
Antonio davis, Jonas Valancuinus, Rasho

all these guys had there peak moments in Toronto besides mcgrady, but mcgrady was with the Raptors for a while, and was great defensive 3 for us matched with vince

Rudy Gay will be taking his spot but he as put in 4 years, and if he does that he'll probably jump all 3 guys

I put down Jonas because his rookie contract meaning he'll be here for a while
How does Jonas make the list based on your requirements?

Other than that I think you have a solid list, the PG order could be up for debate.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:04 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nyall View Post
This franchise is shit, if guys like Lowry and gay, who barely been here a season and in that season achieved mediocrity for this team, yet still make the all time Raptors team.. on anyone's list..


That or our fans are stupid and are as dumb as :therock:s..
Not a lot of people will argue with you that this franchise has not seen the success that some of us would expect.

I do not see a lot of posters listing Lowry or Gay as their starter on their teams. Most seem to agree with Stoudamire, Williams or Calderon (some people are still probably bitter over Calderon and have overlooked him, wait til the "All-Time Team thread" 2016 edition). As for Gay he brings a lot of potential to the team and based on his limited performance here there is reason for people to be excited about what he can do next season and maybe for many seasons to come.

However I am not sure it is accurate to claim the fans are "stupid or dumb as rocks". Look back through the past 15 years, how many long-term solid contributors have there been to the PG and SF positions? Not one PG or SF has made the All-Star team, won a Conference Player of the Week or Month award.

Personally I agree with your statement that is too early to add Gay, Lowry (and JV too) to an All-Time list, but really it is just someone's personal opinion. Many Raptors fans do not want to remember the failure of the past 15 + years and just cling to the hope of one day being a successful team, nothing wrong with that.

If you are going to pick an all-time player you can either choose between a bunch of players who have contributed for one or two seasons and moved on (Alston, Ford, Bogues, Turkoglu, Marion) or you can base it on a current player and the "hope" that he succeeds and makes this list down the road.
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