To all the doubters..... - Page 17
Old 05-20-2010, 02:56 PM   #321 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post

Jeez....have we EVER had a good 2nd round pick?
I guess Matt Bonner would come the closest. Picked by Chicago, but stuck with Toronto after a year in Europe.
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:12 PM   #322 (permalink)
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Don't you love having four years of hindsight to work with? Roy's knees were red-flagged, four teams made the choice to pass and even Portland has said that if they actually had the second pick they'd still have drafted Aldridge over Roy.

You could make a weak case for Rudy Gay, but in a draft where there's no consensus number one it's too easy to sit here and say BC should have drafted this guy or that guy. It comes down to the age-old conundrum of filling a hole or picking the best player at that spot. This team's management has been slagged for addressing needs with draft picks and not picking the top talent. The consensus believed that Bargnani was the best player. What more do you want?
I don't buy that. I think the Raptors are the exception when it comes to taking Bargnani first in that draft. I think he would of been pretty far down on a lot of teams lists when it comes to what they were trying to accomplish and what they felt won basketball games in the NBA. But Dirk was hot at the time, and 7foot Europeans who could shoot the three ball were trendy and a few GMs were sold on that route.

With the holes Bargnani had in his game, and their were more holes a lot of holes, it was a risky first overall pick.

Riskier than Roy, with these "red flagged knees".

Roy showed in the NCAA tournament before the draft that he had an NBA ready body. Including some explosive speed and jumping ability that didn't seem to be hampered by these apparently horrible knees.

And when the guy was still supposed to be a 5-10 pick on pretty much every consensus mock draft that year, and consensus top 1-3 guards in those drafts...does that really demonstrate any concern over knees?

Granger had knee issues that actually affected his draft rank.

It seemed pretty simple at the time for me,

Roy had NBA strength and quickness clearly demonstrated in the NCAA tournament. As well as a knack to get in the paint and finish with strength.

Raptors desperately needed a guard who could score.

A+B=C

But BC had the blinders on for Bargnani.
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:20 PM   #323 (permalink)
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I guess to sum up my point.

Their was no sure thing in that draft, no Lebron. No John Wall. Blake Griffin.

Bargnani was a big risk, as big a risk as Roy's knee imo.

So when your team desperately needs a guard and already has an up and coming star PF...

Why on earth would you draft another offensive minded C/PF?
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:55 PM   #324 (permalink)
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show me one site, magazine, or tv show that had Roy in the top 3, let alone #1.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:00 PM   #325 (permalink)
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Who knows what BC's thought process was going into the draft. BC had already signed Garbajosa and was definitely in talks with AP at that point. It's possible that BC didn't see the need to draft a wing man because he felt those two players would shore up the perimeter issues. Who knows.

I've never held that Bargnani was the right pick at the time and had I been the one in the hot seat I more than likely would have gone with Rudy Gay. I'd like to say I would have gone with Rondo but I'd be lying. Seriously though, this team has a history of drafting to fill a hole only to have those picks crash and burn. Bargnani, although seen as a risk, was widely considered to be the consensus #1.

I'd give anything to do that draft over again, I really would. Brandon Roy and Chris Bosh would have kept this team in the top half of the East for years. But hindsight is just too clear. So many factors to consider - BC had this team's drafting history working against him, his Euro fetish, Brandon Roy's bad knees, AP & Garbo, etc. Brandon Roy really wasn't as obvious a choice as a lot of you are making it out to have been.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:16 PM   #326 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thought View Post
Bargnani, although seen as a risk, was widely considered to be the consensus #1.
But he was only seen as the number one consensus because everybody was pretty sure Colangelo was going draft him with the number one choice.

A week before the draft it seemed everyone knew Bargnani was going to be picked number one, not because he was this beast that was going to tear up the league, or a "sure thing", but because Collangelo made no secrets about scouting the kid and having a close business relationship with Gherardini.

He wasn't seen as a consensus pick before the lottery happened. He wasn't a player that was going to be picked first or second, or even third regardless of what teams were picking at the top.

Insider. I said top 1-3 in guards.


Andrea
Lamarcus
Morrison
Tyrus
Shelden
Roy

He was the first guard drafted and everyone knew he would be one of the first guards drafted.

Last edited by bjjs; 05-20-2010 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:19 PM   #327 (permalink)
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Maurizio Gherardini was hired six days before the draft.

If that wasn't a dead giveaway, I don't know what was.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:25 PM   #328 (permalink)
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As far as BC's thought process, it made sense.

Long range shooting big men were having success in the league(Nowitzki).

European teams were having incredible success on the international stage.

Toronto fans felt as though they had been betrayed on numerous occasions by American born players.


But in hindsight,

a lot of his decisions sucked.

And he gets paid millions of dollars,

to have foresight.
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:42 PM   #329 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Huh? How could Babcock have signed any of these guys when we were capped out at the time?

You misunderstood the point. I was suggesting that BC tried to sign those guys (Salmons, Hill, Ariza) but couldn't because he can't make them come here, whereas Babcock could have technically drafted players that were passed up. That's what I was refering to in the passage that appears to have confused you. It appears as though you thought I was talking about "signing" in both cases, when I was actually talking about just bringing in talented wings in general (Babcock = drafting).

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BC TRIED to get some players here... yes, he tried.... but he failed. Time & time again. Does this franchise really have any more respect now than it did under Babs? Because it sure doesn't seem like it to me.
Well, at least now you admit that he tried to bring in some of the perceived right players. That's an improvement from erroneously concluding that Kerr goes after them while BC does not. Many around here still act like Hedo was his first and only choice, or that AP was his first choice, or that "KRAP-o-please god-no" was his first choice.

And one of the more important points I was trying to make is, even if Babcock stuck around for 2006-2007, there would have been serious limitations on what he could do with the cap space. BC had accomplished something in Phoenix and couldn't bring in guys like Salmons, Hill and Ariza. We can't know for sure, but I have serious doubts Babcock would accomplish much better, unless there was an FA situation where he could simply outbid somebody, or Babcock pulled off some miraculous trade.

As for respect? The organization was laughed at during the babcock era, although I'll concede he had a difficult terrain to deal with. Again, Toronto needed a guy with "balls that clang", who would demand control. The Raps made the playoffs two years in a row under BC and were gaining respect. I'd say it has diminished again. We're definitely in a tough position right now, but even other Babcock fans *cough* Acie *cough* have conceded that BC is pretty good at getting out of a corner, once backed in. Now, for the sake of fairness, it is possible a guy who "pushed back" never would have got hired. It's possible that, in 2004, the organization was looking for somebody who was more of a "yes man" who wouldn't make waves.


Quote:
The parallels between the 2 GMs are really quite striking....

Babcock missing Granger... BC missing Roy.

Babcock taking CV.... BC taking Bargs.

Babcock finding Jose... BC finding Garbo/AP.


The cardinal differences between the 2 lie in the fact that BC has had 4 more years to produce results, has had TOTAL control of the team, and walked into a situation in which he had a good amount of cash to spend on FAs.
1 - I find missing Granger worse, considering Babcock had 2 picks and the ability to gamble in a couple of ways, somewhat similar to how Portland did in 2006. I've already listed the options he had. Also, given the fact that Babcock is cut from a similar cloth as Kevin Mchale, I wouldn't be surprised if Babcock had traded back and taken Randy Foye in 2006. Of course, I am totally speculating. It's just the type of thing Babcock would do, in my opinion.

2 - Regarding CV versus Bargs, I think that's debateable. Neither one of us is privy to the conversations between GMs, so we can't know which player has better trade value. Having said that, CV is up and down and appears to be on the decline, whereas Bargs is improving, even if he is still a massive dissapointment. And that dissapointment stems from the flashes of brilliance you Bargs teases you with. I don't see any of those flashes from CV.


3 - More like Babcock finding Jose and Ukic versus Garbo and AP (technically BC recognized the talent in Salmons, too). More on Ukic later, when I comment on a post from Cladius. I'd take Garbo and either one of Salmons and AP over Jose and Ukic.

Quote:
In reality, BC has done very little to put him over Babcock... esp. considering the credentials that he was coming here with. People thought he was Jesus for God's sake! lol.... He's a politician. That's it. He's made some decent moves but at the end of the day this team is just as bad (or worse) now as it is when he found it.
The people who thought he was Jesus are foolish. We can agree on that. I think he is better than many alternatives, but he's no Jesus. To a degree, ALL GMs outside of the major markets are a politician/salesmen. You have to be, in my opinion.

BC was off to a good start, then some shit hit the fan. In fact, I'd argue that BC did too good a job right off the bat. After Salmons bolted, and then Garbo got injured (and swallowed cap space), the Raps could have benefitted from another lotto pick (or Grant Hill to take the money offered). By doing so well in 2006-2007, the Raps did not have a pick in 2007 because it fell out of the lottery and completed the Lamond Murray trade that Grunwald made (I think those were the circumstances, but I might have to double check. Lots of history to try and remember in this thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
Take a look at the 2005 draft right now and take a look at the players chosen in the 2nd round:

Brandon Bass
CJ Miles
Ronnie Turiaf
Ersan Ilyasova
Monta Ellis
Lou Williams
Andray Blatche
Ryan Gomes
Marcin Gortat
Amir Johnson

Jeez....have we EVER had a good 2nd round pick?
Interesting info. Thanks for posting that, Claudius.

Babcock took Ukic ahead of several of the players on that list, such as Lou Williams, Blatche, Gomes, Gortat, and Johnson. Now, for the most part, I don't trash GMs for how 2nd rounders are used, since it is very difficult to get a good 2nd rounder. Most years there are only 3 or 4 players who end up doing much. A lot of 2nd rounders never last 3 years in the league. Having said that, here is some context. Babcock had two 2nd rounders that year, just like he had two 1st rounders. If he was high on Ukic, he might have been able to nab him at the 58 spot instead of Slokar, while taking someone else with the 41 pick.

4 picks in the 2005 draft, and so much potential to nab 2 or 3 quality players, yet it didn't happen. At the very least, Babcock is totally cursed.

TORap asked if I like "euroball." hahaha

And Acie once raied the PJ Tucker pick as an issue.

Ukic and Sokar doesn't bother you guys? Whatever. I don't care.

At least BC turned 2nd rounders into something (Weems and Amir), even if it was via a trade. It's better than the shit Babcock ended up with.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:53 PM   #330 (permalink)
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This is my favourite thread
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:04 PM   #331 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
.... who said that this team wasn't any different just because they didn't go 8-0 in pre-season

.... who said that Triano was a sham of a coach and wasn't the right man for this team

..... who said that Bosh was overrated, lacked toughness and lacked heart

.... who said that Bellinelli was just a "meh" signing and wouldn't amount to much

.... who said that this Raps team would still struggle to make the playoffs and be lucky to get 40 wins

.... who said that Jose was overrated, couldn't play D and wasn't going to be the right starting PG for this team because he was incapable of pushing the ball


Thanks.

For looking so completely silly right now.


I said it before. I'll say it again. 48-50 wins. #4-5 seed.

Bookmark it and come back to it in April.
Sorry I couldn't wait till April....
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:30 PM   #332 (permalink)
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This was from last season right? :P
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:30 PM   #333 (permalink)
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Almost all the points stated by the thread starter were false by the time the season was over. Commenting on the last few posts, it's obvious that in hindsight picking Roy would have been a mistake.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:38 PM   #334 (permalink)
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This was from last season right? :P
Yep, I just love it though, re-read the whole thing. The whole thing is full of great posts and quotes and its fun to look back
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:54 PM   #335 (permalink)
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Poor TO.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:55 PM   #336 (permalink)
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Poor TO.
He was right about hedo
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:12 PM   #337 (permalink)
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Do we still have a thread hall of fame?
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:57 PM   #338 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
No worries guys.... once Bosh is gone and this team is led by Hedo and Bargs you won't hear a positive peep from me all season (except to root for Sonny).

It'll be fun to join the masses and slam everything about the team incessantly.

My prediction for next season?

23 wins.
Wow, that's actually looking like a pretty damn good prediction!
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:09 PM   #339 (permalink)
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LOL... bumping threads from 2 years ago are we? That's cute.... it IS nice to look back though... because I was actually right with most of those predictions.

Bosh had an AMAZING year and was one of the top players in the league.

Jose proved that when healthy he wasn't half as bad on D as most believed.

Triano coached the team within a hair of a playoff berth in spite of the fact that Hedo was absolutely fricking HORRIBLE and Bosh missed a dozen games or so.

If Bosh doesn't go down at the end of the season we probably win 42 or 43 games and snag the 8th seed.

And Bellinelli? Went on to become a starter for NOH...

Yeah... I think I did fairly well.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:57 PM   #340 (permalink)
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Jose sucks !
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