To all the doubters..... - Page 16
Old 05-19-2010, 08:09 PM   #301 (permalink)
Captain of the Jamario Moon fan club.

Born Unready
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Electric Avenue
Posts: 15,614
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
from what i can remember, i think gay, roy, lamarcus and bargs(relatively unknown to me) were the top candidates for 2006. i think Bosh was endorsing lamarcus.
Adam Morrison was on the radar too, no?
Dark Knight is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 08:14 PM   #302 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 75
Representing:
Default

epic fail for op.:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
waterboy is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 08:38 PM   #303 (permalink)
We going to the 2nd rd!

Senior Member

 
Ball Don't Lie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 11,794
Representing:
Default

I cant remember whether it was SJ TOR or BJJS, but one of them was driving the Morrison bandwagon and I blasted them biggggtime for it. Good times.

Sucks that Roys injury concerns and not jumping up the charts with pre draft workouts didnt enable him to be in the #1 pick discussion before the draft, then we'd be in a much better situation. Not one Raptor fan said lets take him #1 so when people blast BC for it it angers me. And I have blasted BC numerous times, but never for not taking Roy
Ball Don't Lie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 09:53 PM   #304 (permalink)
censored

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,772
Representing:
Default

same as myself. i fully endorse our GM drafting players without injury concerns. my atlanta falcons, under the new GM thomas dimitroff has drafted two first rounds and a second rounder (first two years as the GM) with injury concerns coming out of college. all three are top talent (DT jerry, SS moore and LT baker) and all three have missed significant amounts time falling true to their college reputation of being injury plagued players. he's ten times the GM BC is, but i really hate the idea of wasting the opportunity to add good/great talent on potential when their potential to be in the line-up full time is in question.
dfunkie1 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 04:01 AM   #305 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,467
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
So ACGM... answer me this...

If NOT drafting Iggy was a blunder of monumental proportions for Babock (in spite if the fact that we had MoPete, VC and Jalen on the roster at that point) then why does BC get a pass for drafting Bargs over Roy? Since VC left Bosh has needed ONE thing alongside him... a star wingman. Roy was that guy. And if he wasn't a #1 pick then BC should have traded down to take him and got an another asset in return.

And you keep saying that this franchise needed someone with BALLS instead of Babcock.... drafting CV didn't take balls? Finding Jose didn't take balls? Really?
I don't even know where to start. People already pointed out the knee problems. It's one thing to take Granger in 2004 (arguably the best player available after the top 5) at 7th or 16th pick, it's another thing to try and obtain a draft day Brandon Roy through the 1st pick, either immediately or through trading back. And the knee problems are what made Portland the right team to pick Roy. I'll explain.

Portland was the right team to take a gamble on Roy, because they had 2 high lottos. Also, Portland had just fucked up the year before by trading back and not taking D-Will (they traded from 3rd back to 6th). Portland did exactly what many smart GMs say a team should do when they have 2 reasonably high 1st rounders: make at least one safe pick and take a gamble with the 2nd one if the potential pay-off is high. Lamarcus was a safe bet to turn into a respectable pro (at least), although he didn't have the physical gifts/raw athleticism of Tyrus Thomas. Roy was the second pick Portland made; they gambled in order to take what they perceived to be the best player left. If Portland didn't have 2 high picks, and discuss draft day trades with Chicago and Minnesota, I wouldn't have been surprised if Roy slipped to 10th or farther back. And if Portland had taken D-Will the year before, they likely would have taken Rudy Gay with their 2nd pick. Again, I suspect Roy would have slipped. Just some context. In my opinion, it's not always bad to gamble on a "red-flagged" player, IF (and I stress if) you've got multiple picks.

You don't know for sure that Colangelo didn't explore trading back, although I highly doubt he did. The 2004 draft was much deeper than the 2006 draft. Due to the new regulations, much of the depth had been sapped from the 2006 draft; no Oden, no Durant. It's doubtful there was much demand for the top pick, other than Portland, since the Blazers might have wanted to lock up Aldridge. But I doubt Portland would give up much of an asset, considering that they probably knew BC wasn't interested in Aldrige (he already had Bosh). If you thought this through, TORap, you never would have had to ask your question.

Also, BC planned to use cap space to fill voids at the wing position. And you know what? He did a pretty good job of finding one, except Salmons turned out to be a douchebag who backed out on his verbal agreement. All of those who say Colangelo never had a "vision" are sort of full of shit. He did come in with a decent plan to start, it just ran into a number of snags (Salmons and Garbo) which led him into this game of "shuffling the deck chairs" as LX aptly put it. But even LX consistently acknowledges that the Salmons debacle was a set back.

As for drafting CV being a demonstration of "balls"....um, not in my opinion. The scouts had CV pegged as a player with character issues and a poor work ethic. Those rumours had dogged him since he was at UCONN; they're now haunting him in the NBA and becoming a reality. I don't see picking CV as "ballsy." Granger had payoff. Bynum was young but had payoff. And Haffa was clearly a failure in his first season, so it would have been worth considering Bynum. I'd also like to point out that the CV pick undermines your defence of the Haffa pick. See, you suggested the Raps had too many wings when Iggy was available, yet Babcock drafted CV, a power forward, even though he already had Bosh to play 35+ minutes a game at that position.

Calderon? It's funny you bring him up as a possible "ballsy" move. In a mocking fashion, you asked me if I liked "euroball" in a previous post, yet now you're holding up Calderon as a Babcock achievement. Calderon is frequently held up as a terrible symbol of the "euroball." Your mental gymnastics are great. Awesome points, TORap.

Before I forget, I'd like to point out that Haffa never even filled the starters position on opening night for the Raps in 04-05. So much for needing the "NBA ready" guy who can jump right in, rather than taking Iggy or Biedrins. The Raps got Loren Woods to start. Sure Woods sucked just like Haffa, but the point is there were other options to prevent Bosh from playing Center. The Raps didn't need to waste a gift. Iggy was projected to go top 5. Had the Raps drafted him, it would have resulted in trade offers....maybe even a decent front court player. Who knows? But passing on him is just so fucking brutal and annoying. The 2004 draft was quite deep and it sucks to pass on a player with top 3-5 talent in a deep draft, when you're using an 8th pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
obscure lativian center? that would be the stupidest move possible. at least with NCAA players you had available game tapes and scouting reports you can study about the player. who is going to latvia to scout him? who the hell even knows where latvia is without looking at a map. all you could possibly find is international junior games. sorry, but not sufficient.

roy wasn't first overall because his knees were a scare, but no more than o'neal's. trading down would have been the smartest move available since there wasn't a player worth the first overall pick. i really doubt anything was on the table, though.
No, the obscure Latvian Center would NOT be the stupidest move possible. EVERY analyst had Biedrins going ahead of Haffa. Not so obscure, DUDE. That's why the Haffa pick was laughed at. And I don't even know what to say to you regarding the map comment. I'm just ignoring that. He played in international under 18 tournaments. Some league scouts had seen him play. How do you think all the analysts decided to put him so high? Some had him top 6. In a couple of the links I posted regarding Biedrins the analysts explicitly stated that their predictions were based on discussions with various league scouts. It's a GMs job to follow up on this shit any way possible. Anything less is unacceptable. You can be damn sure BC knows where Latvia is on a map.

The evidence was not sufficient in YOUR MIND. It WAS sufficient for EVERY analyst out there, at least when comparing him to Haffa. Again, the real challenge is to find ONE person outside of the Raps organization who thought that Haffa was the best big man after Dwight and Okafur. It's a difficult task, if it's even possible.

As for O'neal's knees compared to Roy's, there are some differences. The O'neal gamble came after multiple attempts to get Bosh additional help had failed. The stakes were different. During the 2006 draft, BC did not know those other problems would unfold, like Garbo getting hurt, Salmons and Hill rejecting the Raps, and Delfino bolting for Russia. FYI, San Antonio built a solid system based on twin towers. They did so after Robinson missed a full season with a nasty foot injury. Injured veterans who proved themselves in the past have comeback to succeed again. There was a precedent for taking the gamble. In 2006, Roy had not yet played a season of more than 35 games, so nobody had any evidence of how he'd hold up over 82 games. Some differences existed. For the record, and for the sake of honesty, I was actually more intrigued by the Rip Hamilton rumour. Oh well.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 05-20-2010 at 04:03 AM.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 06:08 AM   #306 (permalink)
censored

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,772
Representing:
Default

mock links mean absolutely nothing. do you remember pavel podkolzine? kosta perovic? those two players were once ranked top five, making those experts and mock draft writers look like amateurs. i hope you do realize that the majority of them are.

the basis of your whole argument is pointless anyways. babcock joined six weeks before the draft. biedrins didn't work-out for us. mccloskey made the pick. time to get over it.
dfunkie1 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 09:23 AM   #307 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,484
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
mock links mean absolutely nothing. do you remember pavel podkolzine? kosta perovic? those two players were once ranked top five, making those experts and mock draft writers look like amateurs. i hope you do realize that the majority of them are.

the basis of your whole argument is pointless anyways. babcock joined six weeks before the draft. biedrins didn't work-out for us. mccloskey made the pick. time to get over it.
Pretty much.

I'll address some of ACGM's points again....

1) Can you name me a star rookie with "knee problems" who wasn't able to overcome that injury? Kenyon Martin shattered his leg before the draft, still went #1 and went on to have a decent career. And make no mistake.... EVERYONE knew that Roy was going to be a solid player. Even BC admitted that he'd probably be the ROTY... so I hardly give him an excuse for passing on him when a star swing was EXACTLY what this team needed.

2) If you want to "hindsight" the CV pick then you're more than welcome to. What's amusing is that you continue to think that Biedrins was some kind of no-brainer.... do you remember what his body looked like when he was drafted?? He was skinnier than Bosh lol... and he was supposed to be the starting C? I don't think so.

3) Jose was a nice find FOR CHEAP MONEY. If you're going to bring in "euroball" players then at least bring them in without using a top draft pick or $10M+/yr in salary.


At the end of the day BC's legacy will be judged by whether or not Bosh leaves.... because if he does this team is in SERIOUS trouble. And there are no amount of "poor me" stories that will save him. He's had MORE than enough time to build a winner here. Contrast that to the ONE year that Babcock was given... and it's a pretty ridiculous comparison.

Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 05-20-2010 at 09:33 AM.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 09:26 AM   #308 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,484
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayguy View Post
Oh come on, no one thought Roy was going to be as good as he is. Suggesting he should have traded down and picked Roy doesn't change that fact.

Your comment has been repeated by so many people and yet it never makes any sense.
No one knew that he'd be an all-star..... but most knew that he'd be a very good player. All you had to do was follow him in college to see that.

The Raps have needed a solid swingman since Vince left. They had the chance to take one to pair with Bosh. They passed for a 7 ft. jumpshooting C who plays D once every 10 games.

Sounds like perfect logic to me.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 09:41 AM   #309 (permalink)
jonas smellandchewthis

Senior Member
 
thought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,759
Representing:
Default

Don't you love having four years of hindsight to work with? Roy's knees were red-flagged, four teams made the choice to pass and even Portland has said that if they actually had the second pick they'd still have drafted Aldridge over Roy.

You could make a weak case for Rudy Gay, but in a draft where there's no consensus number one it's too easy to sit here and say BC should have drafted this guy or that guy. It comes down to the age-old conundrum of filling a hole or picking the best player at that spot. This team's management has been slagged for addressing needs with draft picks and not picking the top talent. The consensus believed that Bargnani was the best player. What more do you want?
thought is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 09:45 AM   #310 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,484
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thought View Post
Don't you love having four years of hindsight to work with? Roy's knees were red-flagged, four teams made the choice to pass and even Portland has said that if they actually had the second pick they'd still have drafted Aldridge over Roy.

You could make a weak case for Rudy Gay, but in a draft where there's no consensus number one it's too easy to sit here and say BC should have drafted this guy or that guy. It comes down to the age-old conundrum of filling a hole or picking the best player at that spot. This team's management has been slagged for addressing needs with draft picks and not picking the top talent. The consensus believed that Bargnani was the best player. What more do you want?
And yet Babcock gets flak for taking CV, who was clearly the "best player available"?

And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Roy was considered such a risk. He didn't have a Livingston/Garbojosa type injury.... he was solid all year long in college.... no reason to blacklist him like that.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 09:54 AM   #311 (permalink)
contemplating

The Killing Joke

 
Claudius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burkina Faso, Disputed Zone
Posts: 10,055
Representing:
Send a message via MSN to Claudius
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
And yet Babcock gets flak for taking CV, who was clearly the "best player available"?

And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Roy was considered such a risk. He didn't have a Livingston/Garbojosa type injury.... he was solid all year long in college.... no reason to blacklist him like that.
1. CV wasn't the best player available. Hell, even if you make the case, why you take him when your best player and the guy you're trying to build around plays the same position bothers me. I understand the Barg move more b/c he has the build of a C but CV was more curious. Hell, it began to usher in an era of weak minded players that still hurts this team today.

2. There's already talk that Roy has a shelf life and it's coming up quickly. You're looking for maximum upside with the no. 1 pick. Roy was considered by all to be a safe pick b/c I believe he was a 4 yr. senior, was mentally ready. But many thought that even Randy Foye would eventually surpass him. He was the most ready player but not with the best upside. The difference b/w Roy and Bargnani was development. Bargnani developed on a team that won 45+ games and made it to the playoffs. No room to really make mistakes. Roy's rookie season, Portland was terrible, but he was allowed to make mistakes. If Roy doesn't have that leeway, god knows how he develops.
Claudius is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 11:40 AM   #312 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,484
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
1. CV wasn't the best player available. Hell, even if you make the case, why you take him when your best player and the guy you're trying to build around plays the same position bothers me. I understand the Barg move more b/c he has the build of a C but CV was more curious. Hell, it began to usher in an era of weak minded players that still hurts this team today.

2. There's already talk that Roy has a shelf life and it's coming up quickly. You're looking for maximum upside with the no. 1 pick. Roy was considered by all to be a safe pick b/c I believe he was a 4 yr. senior, was mentally ready. But many thought that even Randy Foye would eventually surpass him. He was the most ready player but not with the best upside. The difference b/w Roy and Bargnani was development. Bargnani developed on a team that won 45+ games and made it to the playoffs. No room to really make mistakes. Roy's rookie season, Portland was terrible, but he was allowed to make mistakes. If Roy doesn't have that leeway, god knows how he develops.
1) You either draft for need or you draft the best available talent. CV was the best available talent (he proved it too by having a great rookie year). If you're going to question Babs for filling a redundant position at PF then you can't question him for passing on Iggy when we had MoPete, VC and Jalen at the wing spots.


2) C.... you're reaching there.. BIG time.

Bargs was given a TON of leeway. The way that he played during his first 3 years he should have rarely seen the floor. He was as lost on the defensive end as Haffa and he's STILL having problems delivering a consistent effort for more than 2 games in a row.

Roy was a pro in POR from day 1. The team may not have been very good but his learning curve wasn't very steep at all. I'd be willing to bet that he would've excelled on pretty much any team that he went to.

Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 05-20-2010 at 11:43 AM.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 01:26 PM   #313 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,467
Representing:
Default

@Jackson

Biedrins was just me referring to TORap's argument about needing a center. Haffa wasn't even the best Center. As I've said on more than one occassion, taking the projected top 5 pick, Iggy, would have been the wise course of action, even if he was flipped. A top 5 talent nets something better than Loren Woods. Having said that, shopping MoPete, rather than Iggy,, would have been best.

Podkolzine was not ranked top 5. And hello, Mcfly, I even acknowledged a few of them were amateurs. But you're missing the point that the MS writers speak with scouts before doing their mock draft. And Podkolzine was diagnosed with a few medical problems, which is part of the reason he slipped to 20 something. Also, after the top 12-15, some teams start drafting for need which is further reason why they slip.

@ TORap

1 - You talk about overcoming injuries, and say BC should have taken Roy, yet you fail to realize that that can be turned around on you in the case of Granger. If this team needed star wings, why not take Granger? The Raps had two top 20 picks in 2004, which would be a great time time to take a gamble, assuming you're going to gamble at all.

2 - CV was NOT the best player available. When it came to drafting Haffa, you say that the best available player (Iggy) wasn't chosen because the Raps already had too many wings, yet suddenly it's fine to make a redundant pick in the case of CV. You say we can't question Babcock, yet it was YOU who raised that particular defense. What I'm questioning is YOUR mental gymnastics to defend that move. It's inconsistent. Most importantly, Iggy WAS the best available in 2004, CV was NOT the best available in 2005. CV picked at the 7th spot really surprised some people. And it probably contributed to people laughing at this franchise.

3 - The 2000 draft, when Kenyon went number #1, was possibly the worst draft in the past 20-30 years. The rest of the top 5 included Stromile Swift, Marcus Fizer, Darius Miles and Mike Miller. Awesome example, just awesome.

4 - No, I don't necessarily think Biedrins was supposed to be a starting C right away; neither was Haffa. But if you're drafting for a C, take Biedrins since he was widely acknowledged as the best available at 8th. If the course of action is to simply get a big man who can play right away with no regard for long term upside, then drafting the "gift" (Iggy) that fell in your lap could be awesome trade bait to do that. Or you have Iggy to fill MoPete's role and you can start shopping Morris for something else. Getting that talent offers lots of flexibility. Instead the Raps didn't get Iggy and didn't even start Haffa; they started Loren Woods. Awesome.

5 - Roy started his rookie season on the sidelines. Roy had multiple surgeries before the draft, that's why there was some concern. He's missed 54 regular season games in his first 4 years. He was also basically unavailable during the opening round of the playoffs. THe guy is a warrior and tried to play, but he might as well have been on the bench since he wasn't normal. I consider that missing a playoff series. Missing an average of 13+ games a season and a playoffs is not necessarily a sign of the end closing in, but combined with his history of surgeries, it's definitely not an encouraging sign. It is the cause of some concerns.

6 - Your response to Claudius regarding CV is....ugh. You claimed he proved he was the "best player" due to his rookie season? What? The Raps were in rebuild mode. CV played almost 30 minutes a game, and that's why he put up stats on a shitty team. Other better players were on teams challenging for a playoff spot. After he left, CV never played that many minutes again. Nobody would put him on the court for that amount of time. Again, he was pegged as having "character issues" and "a lack of work ethic" and that's exactly what people have seen the majority of the time. 3 of his next four seasons he performed shittier than his rookie season. He couldn't even get 30 minutes per game on Milwaukee. Maybe he'll eventually get his act together. Yeah, best available player. :eyerolls: And that's not hindsight. He wasn't acknowledged as the best available at the 7th spot.

As Chisolm pointed out in a great article in another thread, a lot of what a rookie initially does, as well as how he develops, depends on opportunity. CV got an opportunity other BETTER players didn't get. For example, Danny Granger, who Mitch K. and others thought was the best player outside of the top 5, had to play for a playoff team. Granger got fewer minutes. But by his 2nd season, once he was given a bigger role, Granger was already surpassing CV's production, and quite easily.

Taking Iggy at 8th in 2004, or taking Granger at 16th in 2005, made more sense than taking Roy. If you're looking for a top wing player to go with Bosh, then doubling down on the wing position in 2005, in order to maximize the odds, would make some sense. Take Granger and Joey, rather than making a redundant pick in CV. Jalen was going to be ditched soon anyways. Again, not hindsight; the writing was on the wall. Pick Granger and Joey and have them compete for time at the 3 spot, if you're determined to have a solid wing. This is not necessarily what I'd do; it's more a response to your logic about Roy.

P.S.

Again, YOU were the one who raised the "we didn't draft Iggy because we had wings" argument, so I can point out how the CV pick was redundant. It's highlighting the inconsistency in the logic of YOUR defense of the Haffa pick.

Oh, and like I said, Babcock is not the worst GM ever. There are other dudes in this league who have done far worse, in my opinion. I just think BC has tried a lot to improve this franchise, so I'd prefer him over Babcock. There is no reason to believe Babcock could have made players sign in Toronto....and that's essentially what held BC's Raptors back. The inability to get guys like Salmons, Grant Hill, Ariza...etc...I'm just so annoyed by all the missed opportunities during the Babcock era. BC went after the players we needed, even if they didn't come, whereas the Babcock era was full of missed opportunities that were in the Raptors control....at least moreso than the missed signings.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 05-20-2010 at 01:31 PM.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 01:31 PM   #314 (permalink)
contemplating

The Killing Joke

 
Claudius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burkina Faso, Disputed Zone
Posts: 10,055
Representing:
Send a message via MSN to Claudius
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
1) You either draft for need or you draft the best available talent. CV was the best available talent (he proved it too by having a great rookie year). If you're going to question Babs for filling a redundant position at PF then you can't question him for passing on Iggy when we had MoPete, VC and Jalen at the wing spots.
1. Were there not rumors of us being able to move up in that draft to number 3? I can't remember. If so, please chalk that one up to Babs as well as a failed move.

2. Everyone and their mother knew Granger was the better player. Villanueva was the safe pick b/c he played at a big time school. Our weakness wasn't PF it was well, PG/SG/SF. We needed to get address that big time. So why do you draft a PF? You're previous comparison re: Iggy is ridiculous because it was pretty well known you're moving VC, so why not have a replacement for him, in much the same way in that we draft Mo to protect us from T-Mac leaving? If you're moving VC, Bosh by default became our best player and everyone else, including Jalen become immediately expendable. Iggy would've immediately surpassed Mo on the wing and once VC was dealt (giving us leverage) we could've made better trades. I don't want to get into the politics of it right now, but at the end of the day, it's the one move that I'll say put us behind in the Chris Bosh era of the Raptors and our best chance to get someone to play with him.

But I digress, Charlie was a redundant pick. Everyone knew he was too flatfooted to play SF. He had one, ONE, awesome game against the Bucks. He had some game where he played terrible. But again, Granger at that point and time, was the guy who should've been taken. Yes, his injury history scared teams, but if we're going with the best player available idea, he was it and not Charlie.


2)
Quote:
C.... you're reaching there.. BIG time.

Bargs was given a TON of leeway. The way that he played during his first 3 years he should have rarely seen the floor. He was as lost on the defensive end as Haffa and he's STILL having problems delivering a consistent effort for more than 2 games in a row.
Really? He was given a ton of leeway? In which year? Sam kept him accountable for all of his mistakes. Possibly TOO accountable to the point of harming his confidence. But think about Bargs' role and think about Roy's context.

Bargs became an IMMEDIATE complimentary piece to Bosh. We were the best team in the Atlantic Division and the 4th seed in the playoffs. There's added pressure RIGHT THERE to perform. You don't and you get pulled. I think Swirsky was somewhat right in his reasoning in ROY that year. Bargs played a crucial role on a 47 win team. That's worth a lot more than simple stats.

Also, I'll argue that Bargs' biggest drawback is complacency and now NOT having a coach who get's on his balls. Sam was a little too harsh and Triano isn't tough enough, they need someone right in the middle to establish an OVERALL culture of consistency because every player on this damn team had taken nights off.

Quote:
Roy was a pro in POR from day 1. The team may not have been very good but his learning curve wasn't very steep at all. I'd be willing to bet that he would've excelled on pretty much any team that he went to.
He may or may not have. We don't know. All I'm saying, is it's alot easier for a guy, who's a rookie, to develop in a situation, where there's absolutely NOTHING to lose and everything to gain. Whether you want to believe it or not, Roy did get to learn alot by being the MAIN guy in his rookie season. He learned how to deal with double teams, how to be accountable in late game situations, etc. because there was NO ONE else there. When you're given that, you're development WILL be altered.
Claudius is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 01:33 PM   #315 (permalink)
far away

Senior Member
 
archie63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Panama City
Posts: 981
Representing:
Default

ArmChairGM you're the best but it takes 1/2 an hour to read your post, I don't know how much it takes to write them
archie63 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 01:36 PM   #316 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 80,268
Representing:
Default

16 pages and this thread is still going strong.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 02:01 PM   #317 (permalink)
contemplating

The Killing Joke

 
Claudius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burkina Faso, Disputed Zone
Posts: 10,055
Representing:
Send a message via MSN to Claudius
Default

Take a look at the 2005 draft right now and take a look at the players chosen in the 2nd round:

Brandon Bass
CJ Miles
Ronnie Turiaf
Ersan Ilyasova
Monta Ellis
Lou Williams
Andray Blatche
Ryan Gomes
Marcin Gortat
Amir Johnson

Jeez....have we EVER had a good 2nd round pick?
Claudius is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 02:13 PM   #318 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 80,268
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
Take a look at the 2005 draft right now and take a look at the players chosen in the 2nd round:

Brandon Bass
CJ Miles
Ronnie Turiaf
Ersan Ilyasova
Monta Ellis
Lou Williams
Andray Blatche
Ryan Gomes
Marcin Gortat
Amir Johnson

Jeez....have we EVER had a good 2nd round pick?
Nope! Not that i can remember.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 02:46 PM   #319 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,484
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmChairGM View Post
Oh, and like I said, Babcock is not the worst GM ever. There are other dudes in this league who have done far worse, in my opinion. I just think BC has tried a lot to improve this franchise, so I'd prefer him over Babcock. There is no reason to believe Babcock could have made players sign in Toronto....and that's essentially what held BC's Raptors back. The inability to get guys like Salmons, Grant Hill, Ariza...etc...I'm just so annoyed by all the missed opportunities during the Babcock era. BC went after the players we needed, even if they didn't come, whereas the Babcock era was full of missed opportunities that were in the Raptors control....at least moreso than the missed signings.
Huh? How could Babcock have signed any of these guys when we were capped out at the time?

BC TRIED to get some players here... yes, he tried.... but he failed. Time & time again. Does this franchise really have any more respect now than it did under Babs? Because it sure doesn't seem like it to me.

The parallels between the 2 GMs are really quite striking....

Babcock missing Granger... BC missing Roy.

Babcock taking CV.... BC taking Bargs.

Babcock finding Jose... BC finding Garbo/AP.


The cardinal differences between the 2 lie in the fact that BC has had 4 more years to produce results, has had TOTAL control of the team, and walked into a situation in which he had a good amount of cash to spend on FAs.

In reality, BC has done very little to put him over Babcock... esp. considering the credentials that he was coming here with. People thought he was Jesus for God's sake! lol.... He's a politician. That's it. He's made some decent moves but at the end of the day this team is just as bad (or worse) now as it is when he found it.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 02:53 PM   #320 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,484
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
1. Were there not rumors of us being able to move up in that draft to number 3? I can't remember. If so, please chalk that one up to Babs as well as a failed move.

2. Everyone and their mother knew Granger was the better player. Villanueva was the safe pick b/c he played at a big time school. Our weakness wasn't PF it was well, PG/SG/SF. We needed to get address that big time. So why do you draft a PF? You're previous comparison re: Iggy is ridiculous because it was pretty well known you're moving VC, so why not have a replacement for him, in much the same way in that we draft Mo to protect us from T-Mac leaving? If you're moving VC, Bosh by default became our best player and everyone else, including Jalen become immediately expendable. Iggy would've immediately surpassed Mo on the wing and once VC was dealt (giving us leverage) we could've made better trades. I don't want to get into the politics of it right now, but at the end of the day, it's the one move that I'll say put us behind in the Chris Bosh era of the Raptors and our best chance to get someone to play with him.

But I digress, Charlie was a redundant pick. Everyone knew he was too flatfooted to play SF. He had one, ONE, awesome game against the Bucks. He had some game where he played terrible. But again, Granger at that point and time, was the guy who should've been taken. Yes, his injury history scared teams, but if we're going with the best player available idea, he was it and not Charlie.

Again.. a lot of hindsight here. When Babcock came aboard he wasn't looking to deal VC right away as his very 1st move.... why would he? He assumed that VC would still be a pro and play ball while they discussed things. He didn't.

Charlie actually had a better 1st season than Bargs and I can remember how many people were just DROOLING over Bargs in year 1 because of his 3pt shot. He was much more than a 1-hit womder against the Bucks. Pretty impressive too considering the fact that we never ran plays for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
2)

Really? He was given a ton of leeway? In which year? Sam kept him accountable for all of his mistakes. Possibly TOO accountable to the point of harming his confidence. But think about Bargs' role and think about Roy's context.

Bargs became an IMMEDIATE complimentary piece to Bosh. We were the best team in the Atlantic Division and the 4th seed in the playoffs. There's added pressure RIGHT THERE to perform. You don't and you get pulled. I think Swirsky was somewhat right in his reasoning in ROY that year. Bargs played a crucial role on a 47 win team. That's worth a lot more than simple stats.

Also, I'll argue that Bargs' biggest drawback is complacency and now NOT having a coach who get's on his balls. Sam was a little too harsh and Triano isn't tough enough, they need someone right in the middle to establish an OVERALL culture of consistency because every player on this damn team had taken nights off.
You don't remember Sam having a conversation with BC about Bargs' playing time? Because I sure do. If left to Sam Bargs would have probably rotted on the bench for most of the season..... but he was put out there to learn and make mistakes... as per BC. And I'm fine with that. Rooks have to learn somehow. But he had a decent-sized leash to work with... if he didn't he'd have rarely seen the floor.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ESPN: Healthy and happy, O'Neal ready to quiet doubters Dr. J. Naismith Toronto Raptors 3 10-26-2008 08:01 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24