To all the doubters..... - Page 15
Old 05-17-2010, 05:27 PM   #281 (permalink)
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So SJ points out how he could of had Ray Allen instead of AAron and Eric Williams.

-1 for Babcock.

And Acie points out how he was holding onto Jalen who was single handedly holding the franchise back from moving forward with CB at the helm, because of a pick.

-1 for Babcock.

Moves that worked out for Babcock.
1. Signed free agent Jose Calderon.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:31 PM   #282 (permalink)
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i wasn't a big fan of babcock's hiring. if i recall, i believe kiki was available that summer as well.

BUT!

i really don't see any merit in criticizing the job he did, or didn't do when he had his hands tied behind his back. mlse doofuses dick and jack completely undermined babcock and made a fool out of this organization. BC received the highest paying executive position in the NBA to save face. i appreciate that, but i'd rather have babcock with the proper endorsement of the franchise over BC and soft cone ice cream philosophy.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:36 PM   #283 (permalink)
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haffa wasn't babcock's pick, it was interm GM mccloskey's.

also, granger fell that deep in the draft because he doesnt have knees. same thing with blair last year. there's a chance that both won't have problems throughout their careers, but you don't drop a lotto pick on broken goods. also, joey graham was a great pick for us. he just didn't turn out. don't play hindsight.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:56 PM   #284 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
haffa wasn't babcock's pick, it was interm GM mccloskey's.

also, granger fell that deep in the draft because he doesnt have knees. same thing with blair last year. there's a chance that both won't have problems throughout their careers, but you don't drop a lotto pick on broken goods. also, joey graham was a great pick for us. he just didn't turn out. don't play hindsight.
Good points. I can recall people lamenting the fact that we passed on Gerald Green as well..... where is he now?

And Joey STARTED quite a few games for DEN this past season... so obviously he can play.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:59 PM   #285 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
haffa wasn't babcock's pick, it was interm GM mccloskey's.

also, granger fell that deep in the draft because he doesnt have knees. same thing with blair last year. there's a chance that both won't have problems throughout their careers, but you don't drop a lotto pick on broken goods. also, joey graham was a great pick for us. he just didn't turn out. don't play hindsight.
I'll totally concede that it's understandable to not drop a lotto on bad knees. But when you have 2 1st round picks, you're in a position to gamble in some way. The draft is, for the most part, a crapshoot. So, when you have 2 picks, you're in a position to take a shot on someone, either Bynum at 7 or Granger at 16 (outside the lotto). Like I said, Mitch K. (Lakers GM) had Bynum and Granger as his top 2 remaining choices, after the top 5 were gone.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:10 PM   #286 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ArmChairGM View Post
I'm going to make a couple of points regarding draft picks.

Even if Babcock values picks, he did a shitty job of using them. If a noob GM had listened to what most scouts are suggesting, and took the best player available based on that, they'd probably get things right at least 1 out of 3 picks, especially if 2 of them are lottery picks (some talent will still be left). And even if they drafted based on need and followed scouts' rankings, they'd still probably get it right 1 out of 3 times. Babcock couldn't even do that.

In 2004, Babcock went against the grain and picked Haffa. Just embarrasing. And that's not hindsight. At the time, people knew it was a shitty pick.
In 2005, Babcock had 2 1st round picks. He used the 7th overall on CV, who was speculated by many to fall outside of the top 13 and might even have been available with the 2nd Raptor pick. Like Haffa, CV was taken earlier than expected. What did Babcock do with the 2nd pick? He used it on Joey Graham. At the time, that may not have looked too disgusting, but other elite teams had Granger ahead of Graham. In fact, some credible analysts had the Raps taking Granger at the 7th pick. After the top 5, the Lakers had Bynum and Granger as the next top players available. Mitch K. said it in an interview right before the Lakers picked Bynum. On a side note, Shaq is a dumbass for ever suggesting Mitch K. doesn't earn his cheque. Back on topic.

Now, in my opinion, 2005 is actually more annoying than the Haffa decision, even though Haffa was an epic fail. Babcock had 2 picks to play with. When you have 2 picks, it might be a good time to roll the dice with one of them. You can afford to. Of course, he might have thought CV was the gamble. And he should have realized Haffa was a total fail (I don't know what his excuse was, to be honest), so he didn't go after Bynum with the 7th pick. And then he didn't even go after Granger when he was still available outside the lottery. He should have walked away with one of those players. Not only did he miss out on Iggy, but he missed out on one of, or both, Granger and Bynum. I wouldn't have expected him to have the foresight to nab both, that's unfair. He's not in the same league as Mitch K., who would have taken both Bynum and Granger if the Lakers had the 7th and 16th picks. But it WAS realistic to expect Babcock to nab 1 of those 3 players (Iggy, Bynum, Granger). Just one. At the very least he should have nabbed Biedrins who was ranked higher than Haffa. Biedrins would have looked good alongside Bosh back in 2007 and 2008. So...much...drafting fail. Babcock's draft choices had an impact on this organization, and not in a good way. Having said that, I will concede that CV kept his head out of his ass long enough for the Raps to get something out of that pick. But CV is living up to what the scouts said: he is a player with character issues, who does not maximize his skill.

The bottom line is, we don't know for sure how things would have turned out had Babcock stayed. Maybe he would have pulled off some miraculous trade and turned the team around. Who knows? But I'm not convinced, especially since others within the organization did not appear to respect his position.


BC is not super awesome, but I'll take him over Babcock.

ACGM... what about in 2003 when BC chose Zarko Cabarkapa? Or Casey Jacobsen in 2002? Or Iakovos Tsakalidis in 2000?

Do those impress you?

BC did have some success with drafting (Nash, Finley, Amare, Marion, Barbosa).... but let's not forget that he also had daddy's input readily available.. and 13 years to hone his craft.

Babcock's pick weren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be. We passed on Iggy because we already had a glut of swingmen. NELSON was likely the guy we should have targetted instead of Haffa... but with Chris being forced to play C and getting the crap kicked out of him on a nightly basis the Raps draft team was committed to finding a beefy body to put alongside him so he could go back to playing PF. As for Granger.... if Babs had drafted him and his knee would have blown out he'd have looked like a fool too. Lose/lose situation. Graham played for a big time program that went to the final 4 and played pretty well. He also blew everyone away in the draft combine with his raw athleticism. No way you could have known he'd struggle the way he did.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:26 PM   #287 (permalink)
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Bynum was rumoured to have bad knees going into the draft too.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:58 PM   #288 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
ACGM... what about in 2003 when BC chose Zarko Cabarkapa? Or Casey Jacobsen in 2002? Or Iakovos Tsakalidis in 2000?

Do those impress you?
The fact that you had to go to those picks says a lot. In 2000, BC had a late, late 1st rounder and shit was available after Tsakalidis. Michael Redd fell to the 2nd round. Nobody had Redd on their radar. 95% of the picks that followed Tsakalidiis sucked. Weak draft.

In 2002, again, Jacobsen was taken with a late, late 1st rounder. And BC had already drafted PF in the same draft (Amar'e at #9), so I don't blame him for not looking at Boozer. In context, he hit 50% that draft by walking away with Amar'e. I just wanted Babcock to hit 1 of 3 (33%), or at least draft Biedrins.

Quote:
BC did have some success with drafting (Nash, Finley, Amare, Marion, Barbosa).... but let's not forget that he also had daddy's input readily available.. and 13 years to hone his craft.
When BC makes mistakes, you say it is all his fault. When he does something well, it was all daddy. Awesome.


Quote:
Babcock's pick weren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be. We passed on Iggy because we already had a glut of swingmen. NELSON was likely the guy we should have targetted instead of Haffa... but with Chris being forced to play C and getting the crap kicked out of him on a nightly basis the Raps draft team was committed to finding a beefy body to put alongside him so he could go back to playing PF. As for Granger.... if Babs had drafted him and his knee would have blown out he'd have looked like a fool too. Lose/lose situation. Graham played for a big time program that went to the final 4 and played pretty well. He also blew everyone away in the draft combine with his raw athleticism. No way you could have known he'd struggle the way he did.
It's almost like you and Acie talked that one out; I've read that before. Haffa was a brutal pick. Some had him going LATE in the 1st round. You could have traded a wing for C better than Haffa, and then drafted Iggy or Nelson. Or, he could have drafted Biedrins (that wouldn't have been too bad).

Drafting one of Granger or Bynum would not have made him look like a fool to everyone. Like I said, Mitch K. had Granger and Bynum as the top 2 prospects after the top 5. A GM is never going to please everybody. If you have one top 20 pick, then I understand not gambling. He had 2. It's not a matter of knowing whether or not Joey G. would struggle, from my perspective. It's the fact that he's was the 2nd Raptor pick in that draft that was not used on the best player availiable. 2 picks and not once was the best player available taken.

At the very least, Babcock had terrible luck and no control. And the lack of control speaks to his power going forward. You are better off with a GM having control, rather than a guy who supposedly has "a vision" but it is getting mucked up because he can't, or won't, tell the people getting in his way to fuck off.

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Originally Posted by Acie View Post
Bynum was rumoured to have bad knees going into the draft too.
Well, Charlie V. was rumoured to have serious character and work ethic issues....a mental injury of sorts. Oh, guess what? Both are true. Who would the majority of the league rather have?

BTW, I don't recall the Bynum injury, even though the Granger concerns were definitely widely discussed.

Oh, and since Babcock didn't draft Granger or Bynum, then he definitely wouldn't gamble the 1st pick on Roy. So, how would Babcock have improved the Raps situation through the 2006 draft? Of course we can only speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised if he traded back and took Randy Foye to play the point.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:09 PM   #289 (permalink)
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The fact that you had to go to those picks says a lot.
do you really think he a choice? we can play the just imagine game and pretend what players would have been selected with the picks that BC traded away for nothing.
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:50 PM   #290 (permalink)
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Biedrins is a pure hindsight pick.

I challenge ANYONE to tell me that they knew he was going to be a decent player.

Babcock was absolutely hand-cuffed... financially and almost literally (by Peddie). And he still managed to make some decent moves. AND he had a plan.

Which is more than I've seen from BC.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:10 AM   #291 (permalink)
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do you really think he a choice? we can play the just imagine game and pretend what players would have been selected with the picks that BC traded away for nothing.
Choice? Are you referring to TORap listing those Phoenix picks? If so, then yeah, TORap didn't have to; he had a choice. TORap listed 3 picks that don't prove much because there really wasn't anything else to pick. Furthermore, it's a bad comparison to Babcock's picks, because the ones TORap selected were NOT lottery picks, 2 of which were LATE 1st rounders. On the other hand, Haffa and CV were lottos, and Joey was a mid 1st. BC has found value in lottos, even if he's guilty of not trading Bargs early enough (maybe you could make that case).

Now, having said that, you are right to point out that some could try and play the "just imagine" game with BC's traded picks. Let's explore that a little bit for the sake of some objectivity.

1 - BC had no 1st rounder in 2007 - Grunwald traded it.

2 - BC traded the 2008 pick to Indiana (Hibbert). You could criticize that, but it's the price you pay for trying to bring in JO and give it a try. I like the balls he showed on that. I would have prefered Calderon for Rip Hamilton if that rumour was true. Oh well.

3 - BC traded away two 2nd rounders for Delfino. However, Delfino was the key to acquiring Weems and Amir. Do you think anyone on this board would have a problem with trading two 2nd rounders for Amir and Weems? 2nd rounders are huge gambles. I've already been over this with Acie. Most 2nd rounders don't last past their first contract. Weems was starting games for us and Amir is now starting his 3rd contract. Think about it, bro.

4 - The only real "just imagine" game worth playing relates to the pick he sent to Miami. We still don't know how that will unfold or what spot Miami will pick at. That's fair. We'll see what happens.

BC's 2 lottos = Derozan and Bargs

Babcock's 2 lottos = Haffa and CV

Just saying. We can also still play the "just imagine" with Derozan, Weems, Bargs....etc...they keep improving. Haffa is out of the league. Joey sucks ass. CV is overpaid and on the decline, although he might eventually get his act together...maybe. But the scouts predicted CV's troubles. They called that shit.

Now for TORap.


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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Biedrins is a pure hindsight pick.

I challenge ANYONE to tell me that they knew he was going to be a decent player.
This should be added to the list of acceptable uses of the facepalm. TORap issues a challenge. If you watched the 2004 draft, you'd know the league laughed at Toronto. Haffa was a disgusting pick. Is 10 sources enough to meet your challenge?

I'll provide a list of 10 amateurs AND professionals who had Biedrins going BEFORE Haffa. I could have found more, but stopped at 10. The real challenge should be to find one analyst outside of the Raptors organization who thought Haffa was better than Biedrins. That's the real question, because it was very obvious that Biedrins had huge upside. Most analysts had Biedrins pegged as the best Center in the draft. And some of these analysts had the Raps picking some solid alternatives, like Josh Smith. It's amazing how many of them could have done better than Babcock. Many had Iggy going top 5. Babcock passed up on a major talent in Iggy, and people knew it. I watched that draft, and the only thing I remember reporters finding more shocking than the Haffa pick was Josh Smith slipping so far down. I think 1 site (ESPN) made a worse, or equally bad, decision for the Raps (Luke Jackson). The rest look solid. 9 out of the first 10 analysts I found did better than Babcock. I don't think you realize how "against the grain" Babcock's picks were; he changed the course of this franchise in some very negative ways. He was like McHale, who also went "against the grain" in terrible ways. Clearing cap space is great, and Babcock deserves a little credit for that, but he contributed to, or should take sole responsibility for, a few royal fuck ups.

Links (I'll start with pros and transition to amateurs):

1 LINK - ESPN

2 LINK - NBA.com - Lawler

3 LINK - NBA.com - Blazers analyst

4 LINK -Sports Illustrated

5 LINK - NBA.com - Mock Draft

6 LINK - Fox Sports - Scout

7 LINK - NBAdraft.net

8 LINK - CollegeHoopsNet

9 LINK - Some amateur dude who knew it

10 LINK - more amateur dudes who knew it

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Babcock was absolutely hand-cuffed... financially and almost literally (by Peddie). And he still managed to make some decent moves. AND he had a plan.

Which is more than I've seen from BC.
You know what? Babcock came in at a time when the Raps DESPERATELY needed balls. There were enough cocks, we needed balls. After a shitty 2004 pick and the loss of VC, almost anybody would have pursued that "vision" given the particular scenario the Raps were facing. It really wasn't much of a great vision. Cutting fat and rebuilding after VC was traded was just logical. There was no other choice. What...a...vision. Pretty basic. Sure, it could have turned out great, but he went 0 for 3 with his picks. No Iggy, No Biedrins, No Bynum, No Granger. And on top of that, it's possible he turned down the Ray Allen deal, if it really existed. And if it did exist, the Raps wouldn't have been in such a need to rebuild. Iggy or Biedrins + Allen + Bosh = equals major eastern conference threat by the 2006-2007 season.

Is Babcock the worst GM ever? No. But he was pretty shitty, and I'd take BC over him.
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Old 05-18-2010, 06:21 AM   #292 (permalink)
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biedrins didn't work-out with us. he received a guarantee from golden state and withdrew from all his scheduled team meetings.

re: your response to me - three degrees of separation is as awesome as hindsight. you clearly missed the actual point of my comment. BC gives away first rounders. he did it here and he did it in phoenix. when you have to date back to a period between 95-02 to show someone's draft merits, it shows me that he hasn't done anything in a very long time.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:43 AM   #293 (permalink)
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ACGM..... 1st off STOP with the "Haffa was Babcock's pick".

He wasn't.

You know this. I know this. Jackson knows this. EVERYONE knows this.

2nd... Biedrins had more "potential" but he was raw as hell and it was acknowledged that he'd probably take 4-5 years to blossom. The Raps didn't have that kind of time. Bosh was being beat up on a nightly basis... they wanted some help for him down low NOW. Remember that no one knew if Bosh was going to re-sign with us after his rookie contract. Haffa was the best "NBA ready" big available.... so he was chosen.

You can continue to slam Babcock all you want.... but the reality of the situation is that he was under Peddie's (and then Embry's) thumb. And he was fucked over by Vince who decided to tank his trade value.

When Babcock came in we weren't expected to go ANYWHERE. We were capped out.... we had a star that wanted to leave... very little hope.

Over BC's tenure here we've had one of the best players in the NBA (Bosh), great cap room and a #1 pick.

Are you impressed by what you've seen over the past 2 seasons? Does "euro-ball" appeal to you? In love with Bargs & Hedo?

If Bosh leaves this off-season it'll be a failure far beyond anything that Babcock ever did (or didn't do).
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:59 AM   #294 (permalink)
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We were one of the worst defensive teams of the decade and top 10 worst defences i NBA history.

Turkoglu and Bargnani were both on the all NBA no defence team.

Who signed Turk for that contract? And who signed Bargs to an extension?

We had a player in the league who was top 6 in pts/rebs/assts and Colangelo surrounded him with the worst mix of unathletic european players. Even if you don't think Bosh is all that great, anyone on this forum will agree that a decent GM could have atleast gotten this team into the playoffs around Bosh.

Look at last year's roster, Solomon/Parker/Moon???? That is our worst backcourt in the history of the raps' franchise.

If Bosh leaves and we're left with Turk, Bargs and Triano... Colangelo should be considered a huge failure.
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:22 AM   #295 (permalink)
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biedrins didn't work-out with us. he received a guarantee from golden state and withdrew from all his scheduled team meetings.

re: your response to me - three degrees of separation is as awesome as hindsight. you clearly missed the actual point of my comment. BC gives away first rounders. he did it here and he did it in phoenix. when you have to date back to a period between 95-02 to show someone's draft merits, it shows me that he hasn't done anything in a very long time.
First off, just because a player doesn't work out with a team, doesn't mean you don't draft him. Give me a break. Teams draft players who don't work out for them. Good players drop and teams act accordingly. Last year, Steph Curry turned down workouts with several teams. If he had somehow slipped, teams would have gladly gobbled him up. Biedrins was available, and soooo many people thought he would be the best available Center at the 8th pick. That's part of the reason why the analysts, including the sportscasters covering the draft, were shocked by the Haffa pick.

Second, I mentioned Bargs and Derozan, so I didn't have to go back to 2002. Bargs has trade value. There was a lot of potential for worse things to happen in the 2006 draft. Derozan...who knows. I think he'll be a 15-17 ppg player, which is acceptable for the 9th pick. There weren't any obvious "gifts" that BC passed up on.

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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
ACGM..... 1st off STOP with the "Haffa was Babcock's pick".

He wasn't.
You know this. I know this. Jackson knows this. EVERYONE knows this.
He was hired before the draft. And he'd been interviewing for a job in previous weeks, so you can't say he wasn't actively thinking about what he would do in the draft. And if he wasn't, then that's just stupid. Once Iggy slipped or Biedrins was still available, he had the power to accept that gift. That's what I was refering to when I said we needed someone with "balls." The organization needed someone to put their foot down. I could say more, but I got 3 people to respond to now. We'll se how this goes.

Quote:
2nd... Biedrins had more "potential" but he was raw as hell and it was acknowledged that he'd probably take 4-5 years to blossom.
Oh, so now Biedrins has more potential? Remember how you said this to me about Biedrins in your last post:
Quote:
I challenge ANYONE to tell me that they knew he was going to be a decent player.
If the standard of your challenge was for someone to claim Biedrins was just going to be "decent", yet he had more "potential" than Haffa, what the fuck does that say about haffa? Geez.

Quote:
The Raps didn't have that kind of time. Bosh was being beat up on a nightly basis... they wanted some help for him down low NOW. Remember that no one knew if Bosh was going to re-sign with us after his rookie contract. Haffa was the best "NBA ready" big available.... so he was chosen.
To keep Bosh from playing Center, there were other ways to do that without pissing away such a great gift as having Iggy slip. MoPete could be shopped, for example. I've already mentioned other options.

Quote:
You can continue to slam Babcock all you want.... but the reality of the situation is that he was under Peddie's (and then Embry's) thumb. And he was fucked over by Vince who decided to tank his trade value.
Again, that's part of why I said this organization desperately needed someone with balls who asserts/demands control. And if (I stress if) that Ray Allen deal was really on the table, then things could have been turned around after one season. Bosh + Ray Allen +Iggy Even with Biedrins the Raps would have been solid.

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When Babcock came in we weren't expected to go ANYWHERE. We were capped out.... we had a star that wanted to leave... very little hope.
Yeah, and we were handed a gift when Iggy slipped. And gain, the Ray Allen deal would apply here (if it was available).

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Over BC's tenure here we've had one of the best players in the NBA (Bosh), great cap room and a #1 pick.
I already addressed that at some length in a previous post. As much as I'd love to go over that a million times with you, I'm not going to.

Quote:
Are you impressed by what you've seen over the past 2 seasons? Does "euro-ball" appeal to you? In love with Bargs & Hedo?
Did you read my earlier posts? I already pointed out to you that BC went after other players before Hedo, such as Ariza who took less money. Again, that was in one of my other posts. He could have offered Hedo that money before he ever went to Portland for a visit. Why would he risk losing Hedo, if he was the only option being pursued? BC explored other options before working a sign and trade for Hedo. People would have flipped out if he did nothing last summer. And if he did nothing last off-season, that's like giving up on keeping Bosh. He talked to other players' agents, but couldn't get them, thus he made a play for Hedo.

Yeah, I'm in love with Bargs. You got me. He has some trade value. And, unlike you, who appears to unwaveringly defend Babcock, I've actually criticized BC for making Bargs untouchable. I don't think any player should be. I'd prefer a GM keep an open mind about trade possibilities.

Furthermore, I said this:
Quote:
BC is not super awesome, but I'll take him over Babcock.
See, I don't think he's super awesome, so stop with the "do you love euro ball and Bargs" shit. I like winning. BC didn't come here and immediately start playing euro ball. And if some of his attempted signings had been successful, we'd be farther away from euro ball than we are. On a number of occassions, he's tried to get guys who aren't euros. You guys just don't want to acknowledge that. I guess it's easier to just shit on him than accept that some good players just don't want to be here, just like they don't want to be in lower profile American cities. When he can't get other players, he has a tendency to fall back to eruos, but he doesn't always seek it out as a first option. He appears to do it to try and get talent when he can't be obtained through other means. And you keep repeating about how Babcock's hands are tied, yet you don't acknowledge the non-"euro ball" moves BC tries to make but is unable to because he can't make players sign here, even if he gives more money.

JO - not euro ball
Garbo - not euro ball
AP - not euro ball
TJ - not euro ball
Jack - not euro ball
Amir - not euro ball
Weems - not euro ball
DD - not euro ball
attempt to sign Salmons - not euro ball
attempt to sign Grant Hill - not euro ball
attempt to sign Ariza - not euro ball

Quote:
If Bosh leaves this off-season it'll be a failure far beyond anything that Babcock ever did (or didn't do).
Your opinion, and you're entitled to it. And if you don't think BC tried his ass off to keep him, you're entitled to deny that, too. You know, you can go on saying that BC never tried to make moves that Kerr made, even though BC did try to obtain similar wing players for Toronto. Just like I'm entitled to be annoyed by the missed opportunities of the Babcock era.

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We were one of the worst defensive teams of the decade and top 10 worst defences i NBA history.
Hey! It's the guy who said Paul Pierce is "lazy" this year. Thanks for stopping by and joining the discussion.

Yes, the defence was aweful. BC deserves some blame for re-signing Triano. I've said that a million times. As many people already know, if the Raps had been slightly better on defense, they would have been close to a 50 win team, similar to the Sonics when they were coached by Nate McMillan. Through some internal improvement (Weems and DD) and a better coach, this team could win 45+ games. Even TORap thought so! There is talent on this roster.

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Turkoglu and Bargnani were both on the all NBA no defence team.

Who signed Turk for that contract? And who signed Bargs to an extension?
First off, if you're suggesting that BC should not have signed Bargs to an extension and instead just let him walk, then you're both a total hypocrite and just plain ridiculous. You weren't upset about the Bargs signing earlier in the year, hence you'd do the same thing. And yeah, I think it was a good signing. I have no problem saying that. $10 mill for Bargs isn't bad. He makes $8 mill next year, $9 mill after that, and never goes higher than $12, which means he is tradeable. Better to hold an asset than let it go for nothing. And if a new GM takes over for BC, that new GM will probably be glad that BC didn't just let him walk, even if trading Bargs is the first thing that new GM does. It's an efficient contract for fuck's sake.

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We had a player in the league who was top 6 in pts/rebs/assts and Colangelo surrounded him with the worst mix of unathletic european players. Even if you don't think Bosh is all that great, anyone on this forum will agree that a decent GM could have atleast gotten this team into the playoffs around Bosh.
And maybe he had a career year offensively because he was surrounded with loads of offensive help?

1 - No Bosh injury = playoffs.

2 - Again, he went after other players. And Hedo was one of the top free agents, so, at the time, many would have considered Hedo a pretty decent "back-up" plan. But, yeah, Kevin Pritchard in Portland doesn't know what he's doing either, I guess. I mean, after all, he wanted Hedo, too.
Ariza would have been nice, so would Artest, but those dudes would never come.

[quote]Look at last year's roster, Solomon/Parker/Moon???? That is our worst backcourt in the history of the raps' franchise.[quote]

1- Delfino bolted for Russia. That hurt.
2- Garbo was injured but still on the books as salary. That hurt.
3 - In 2 previous summers, BC had tried to sign Salmons and Grant Hill. After being rejected, he ended up with AP and KRAP-o-no. He made plays for other wings/guards. But, hey, I bet they would have signed if Babcock was the GM.
4 - He took a gamble by bringing in JO. He showed some balls. That's how he tried to bring in some talent, since players weren't coming in the past via the MLE/cap space. And when you can't get talent through cap space and the MLE, gambling with a trade is sometimes what you have to do.

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If Bosh leaves and we're left with Turk, Bargs and Triano... Colangelo should be considered a huge failure.
Yet somehow that huge failure managed to put together a team that tied the franchise record for wins in a season. How did he do it? Oh yeah, all the GMs before him missed several good opportunities to bring in wing talent and subsequently also experienced struggles. And it's Toronto, which is a really difficult place to be a GM. 15 years, no 50 win seasons. That's actually how this all started: TORap didn't want to acknowledge a basic point I made about Toronto being a tough place to be a GM.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 05-19-2010 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:52 AM   #296 (permalink)
playoffs please dont end

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If Bosh leaves this off-season it'll be a failure
Can't argue with that. But thats FA for you.
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:14 PM   #297 (permalink)
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So ACGM... answer me this...

If NOT drafting Iggy was a blunder of monumental proportions for Babock (in spite if the fact that we had MoPete, VC and Jalen on the roster at that point) then why does BC get a pass for drafting Bargs over Roy? Since VC left Bosh has needed ONE thing alongside him... a star wingman. Roy was that guy. And if he wasn't a #1 pick then BC should have traded down to take him and got an another asset in return.

And you keep saying that this franchise needed someone with BALLS instead of Babcock.... drafting CV didn't take balls? Finding Jose didn't take balls? Really?
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:48 PM   #298 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
So ACGM... answer me this...

If NOT drafting Iggy was a blunder of monumental proportions for Babock (in spite if the fact that we had MoPete, VC and Jalen on the roster at that point) then why does BC get a pass for drafting Bargs over Roy? Since VC left Bosh has needed ONE thing alongside him... a star wingman. Roy was that guy. And if he wasn't a #1 pick then BC should have traded down to take him and got an another asset in return.
Oh come on, no one thought Roy was going to be as good as he is. Suggesting he should have traded down and picked Roy doesn't change that fact.

Your comment has been repeated by so many people and yet it never makes any sense.
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:02 PM   #299 (permalink)
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First off, just because a player doesn't work out with a team, doesn't mean you don't draft him. Give me a break.
obscure lativian center? that would be the stupidest move possible. at least with NCAA players you had available game tapes and scouting reports you can study about the player. who is going to latvia to scout him? who the hell even knows where latvia is without looking at a map. all you could possibly find is international junior games. sorry, but not sufficient.

roy wasn't first overall because his knees were a scare, but no more than o'neal's. trading down would have been the smartest move available since there wasn't a player worth the first overall pick. i really doubt anything was on the table, though.
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:08 PM   #300 (permalink)
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from what i can remember, i think gay, roy, lamarcus and bargs(relatively unknown to me) were the top candidates for 2006. i think Bosh was endorsing lamarcus.
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