To all the doubters..... - Page 14
Old 05-13-2010, 07:57 PM   #261 (permalink)
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There are actually quite a few differences between jeffb & I...

About 15,000 posts for starters. Lol.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:00 PM   #262 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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There are actually quite a few differences between jeffb & I...

About 15,000 posts for starters. Lol.
What do the differences between me and you have to do with anything? Lol
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:34 PM   #263 (permalink)
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There are actually quite a few differences between jeffb & I...

About 15,000 posts for starters. Lol.
haha

So well played. So well played.


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What do the differences between me and you have to do with anything? Lol
Jeff, he's probably talking about what LX said regarding your tendency to ridicule others' posts upon occassion. That's a point worth taking into account, I guess. I mean, aside from a few negative responses to users lately, TORap is a good natured, positive guy. You, on the other hand, Jeff, do ridicule some posts. But, on a somewhat related note, Jeff, you also take a joke/jab from others pretty well. So it goes both ways.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:26 PM   #264 (permalink)
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Hey, do you guys remember when Babcock traded Half man Half amazing for the A-TRAIN!!

Then he couldn`t unload Joggin`Jalen because every GM in the league and their mothers were trying to take Babcock for everything including the shirt off his back. That including that Babs was scared to make a move and look like a fool again.

Then comes Wayne Embry who steps in and does what Babs couldn`t do in half a season in a matter of two days and trade Jalen.

Yeah...Babcock was awesome.

Last edited by bjjs; 05-13-2010 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:53 PM   #265 (permalink)
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Hey, do you guys remember when Babcock traded Half man Half amazing for the A-TRAIN!!

Then he couldn`t unload Joggin`Jalen because every GM in the league and their mothers were trying to take Babcock for everything including the shirt off his back. That including that Babs was scared to make a move and look like a fool again.

Then comes Wayne Embry who steps in and does what Babs couldn`t do in half a season in a matter of two days and trade Jalen.

Yeah...Babcock was awesome.
Yes, that was what the general public will remember... but it was anything but the truth. You were actually around when all of this was going on "PB"...

I'll lay it out one more time for anyone who doesn't know.

The VC/Mourning trade was on the table. It was about December (2 months away from the trade deadline). Babcock knew that it was an offer but had lots of time to field other ones before time was up.

Peddie got wind of the offer which allowed for some financial relief for MLSE and took the deal to the board over Babcock's head (Babs didn't have the absolute power that BC has now.... small wonder that BC demanded autonomy after seeing what happened before).

The board sided with Peddie and told Babcock to push the deal through.

ALL OF THIS WAS STILL 2 MONTHS BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE.

Babcock took the fall for the trade, while Peddie slunk back into the shadows.

Does anyone here REALLY believe that Babcock would have pulled the trigger on that deal in December when he still had LOADS of time to field other offers??

Then Babcock gets canned the following season before the trade deadline and Embry comes in and deals Jalen (a deal that Babcock had engineered) to the Knicks. Wow. What a hero.

Babcock wasn't "scared" to do anything. He had a plan and a vision and came into the shittiest situation in the league at that time.... and he STILL made some great moves.

He flipped Rafer for Mike James (who had the best year of his career in a Raps uni and worked beautifully with CB4).

He found Jose out of nowhere.

He drafted CV when almost no one else saw any kind of potential in him at all (and then watched him have a GREAT rookie season).

The man was asked to turn around a capped out team with a superstar who didn't want to play there anymore.... and he was asked to do it in ONE YEAR.

That's absolutely ridiculous. And there's no way in hell that anyone can tell me that they judge the quality of a GM in ONE off-season.

I really wish that I had saved some of those articles.... maybe I'll see if I can dig them up somewhere.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:12 PM   #266 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Yes, that was what the general public will remember... but it was anything but the truth. You were actually around when all of this was going on "PB"...

I'll lay it out one more time for anyone who doesn't know.

The VC/Mourning trade was on the table. It was about December (2 months away from the trade deadline). Babcock knew that it was an offer but had lots of time to field other ones before time was up.

Peddie got wind of the offer which allowed for some financial relief for MLSE and took the deal to the board over Babcock's head (Babs didn't have the absolute power that BC has now.... small wonder that BC demanded autonomy after seeing what happened before).

The board sided with Peddie and told Babcock to push the deal through.

ALL OF THIS WAS STILL 2 MONTHS BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE.

Babcock took the fall for the trade, while Peddie slunk back into the shadows.

Does anyone here REALLY believe that Babcock would have pulled the trigger on that deal in December when he still had LOADS of time to field other offers??

Then Babcock gets canned the following season before the trade deadline and Embry comes in and deals Jalen (a deal that Babcock had engineered) to the Knicks. Wow. What a hero.

Babcock wasn't "scared" to do anything. He had a plan and a vision and came into the shittiest situation in the league at that time.... and he STILL made some great moves.

He flipped Rafer for Mike James (who had the best year of his career in a Raps uni and worked beautifully with CB4).

He found Jose out of nowhere.

He drafted CV when almost no one else saw any kind of potential in him at all (and then watched him have a GREAT rookie season).

The man was asked to turn around a capped out team with a superstar who didn't want to play there anymore.... and he was asked to do it in ONE YEAR.

That's absolutely ridiculous. And there's no way in hell that anyone can tell me that they judge the quality of a GM in ONE off-season.

I really wish that I had saved some of those articles.... maybe I'll see if I can dig them up somewhere.
How was VC doing at that time though?
Wasn't he either injured or lowering his trade value?

I know nothing of this history (don't remember) but he pulled one of the most lob-sided deals ever. :facepalm:


lol but I do remember "dunking is over-rated."
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:12 AM   #267 (permalink)
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How was VC doing at that time though?
Better than the dog he was fucking.
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:40 AM   #268 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Yes, that was what the general public will remember... but it was anything but the truth. You were actually around when all of this was going on "PB"...

I'll lay it out one more time for anyone who doesn't know.

The VC/Mourning trade was on the table. It was about December (2 months away from the trade deadline). Babcock knew that it was an offer but had lots of time to field other ones before time was up.

Peddie got wind of the offer which allowed for some financial relief for MLSE and took the deal to the board over Babcock's head (Babs didn't have the absolute power that BC has now.... small wonder that BC demanded autonomy after seeing what happened before).

The board sided with Peddie and told Babcock to push the deal through.

ALL OF THIS WAS STILL 2 MONTHS BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE.

Babcock took the fall for the trade, while Peddie slunk back into the shadows.

Does anyone here REALLY believe that Babcock would have pulled the trigger on that deal in December when he still had LOADS of time to field other offers??

Then Babcock gets canned the following season before the trade deadline and Embry comes in and deals Jalen (a deal that Babcock had engineered) to the Knicks. Wow. What a hero.

Babcock wasn't "scared" to do anything. He had a plan and a vision and came into the shittiest situation in the league at that time.... and he STILL made some great moves.

He flipped Rafer for Mike James (who had the best year of his career in a Raps uni and worked beautifully with CB4).

He found Jose out of nowhere.

He drafted CV when almost no one else saw any kind of potential in him at all (and then watched him have a GREAT rookie season).

The man was asked to turn around a capped out team with a superstar who didn't want to play there anymore.... and he was asked to do it in ONE YEAR.

That's absolutely ridiculous. And there's no way in hell that anyone can tell me that they judge the quality of a GM in ONE off-season.

I really wish that I had saved some of those articles.... maybe I'll see if I can dig them up somewhere.
He traded VC for A-Train, and Zo who didn`t play a game for us.

Simple as that.

Blame whoever you want. He`s the GM. The trade was his responsibility.

He engineered the deal that Embry made... Search long and hard for the article, because their never was one. Embry made the deal. Once again, simple as that. If Babcock engineered it, he should of pulled the trigger. Jalen was dragging the team down and everyone in the league knew he was on the blocks but poor old Babs never made the move.

Embry did. Speculate all you want, that`s what happened.

Charlie V is a bum.
Mike James was playing for himself.

His legacy begins and ends at giving Jose a chance in the NBA.
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:52 AM   #269 (permalink)
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I thought VC should have been trade for Rayray back then.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:59 PM   #270 (permalink)
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He traded VC for A-Train, and Zo who didn`t play a game for us.

Simple as that.

Blame whoever you want. He`s the GM. The trade was his responsibility.

He engineered the deal that Embry made... Search long and hard for the article, because their never was one. Embry made the deal. Once again, simple as that. If Babcock engineered it, he should of pulled the trigger. Jalen was dragging the team down and everyone in the league knew he was on the blocks but poor old Babs never made the move.

Embry did. Speculate all you want, that`s what happened.

Charlie V is a bum.
Mike James was playing for himself.

His legacy begins and ends at giving Jose a chance in the NBA.
C'mon man... lol.... as a GM his job was to field offers. He did that. he had the offer from NJ in December. Peddie took it to the board (as team president I believe) over his head. Things were different back then. Babcock didn't have the autonomy that BC has now.

Same thing with the Jalen deal. As a GM why would you make a deal in December when the deadline isn't until Feb? That's just bad business.

CV... Mike James.... Jose.... hindsight my friend.

I'm sure that I can compile a list of BC's failures that would make your skin crawl.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:02 PM   #271 (permalink)
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C'mon man... lol.... as a GM his job was to field offers. He did that. he had the offer from NJ in December. Peddie took it to the board (as team president I believe) over his head. Things were different back then. Babcock didn't have the autonomy that BC has now.

Same thing with the Jalen deal. As a GM why would you make a deal in December when the deadline isn't until Feb? That's just bad business.

CV... Mike James.... Jose.... hindsight my friend.

I'm sure that I can compile a list of BC's failures that would make your skin crawl.
Mike James expiring contract rid the Raps of Rafer's much longer deal.

IIRC the Knicks deal was on the table, but they wanted the pick and Babcock didn't want to include it. As soon as he was gone Embry went ahead and threw it in.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:23 PM   #272 (permalink)
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Mike James expiring contract rid the Raps of Rafer's much longer deal.

IIRC the Knicks deal was on the table, but they wanted the pick and Babcock didn't want to include it. As soon as he was gone Embry went ahead and threw it in.
EXACTLY.

Babcock was likely the ONE GM that we've had who actually valued draft picks (which made a lot of sense at the time given the state of the team).

And Embry was seen as a hero for what? Caving in to the Knicks' demands?
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:26 PM   #273 (permalink)
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And Embry was seen as a hero for what? Caving in to the Knicks' demands?

Trading Kareem for a bunch of role players...???
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:31 PM   #274 (permalink)
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Hey, do you guys remember when Babcock traded Half man Half amazing for the A-TRAIN!!

Then he couldn`t unload Joggin`Jalen because every GM in the league and their mothers were trying to take Babcock for everything including the shirt off his back. That including that Babs was scared to make a move and look like a fool again.

Then comes Wayne Embry who steps in and does what Babs couldn`t do in half a season in a matter of two days and trade Jalen.

Yeah...Babcock was awesome.
In his defence, Carter had made himself pretty much un-tradeable and Babcock was getting power lowballed around the league and everyone knew it. Hell, I remember the best (and not bad in retrospect) offer was The Jesus straight up. Other than that, there was nothing. The trade that was made was actually a good one for toronto financially, it ended up saving them 10 million, or 15 i think because dickhead was never coming and they had already conceded he was gonna get a buyout before they made the deal.

(side note. why do people still hate Mourning for that, it wasn't a secret, he wasn't ever coming, he was a measurable loss that saved cap space.)

anyhow. ya. Babcock wasn't great, but he was pretty much fucked, and Grunwald did that.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:32 PM   #275 (permalink)
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Yes, that was what the general public will remember... but it was anything but the truth. You were actually around when all of this was going on "PB"...

I'll lay it out one more time for anyone who doesn't know.

The VC/Mourning trade was on the table. It was about December (2 months away from the trade deadline). Babcock knew that it was an offer but had lots of time to field other ones before time was up.

Peddie got wind of the offer which allowed for some financial relief for MLSE and took the deal to the board over Babcock's head (Babs didn't have the absolute power that BC has now.... small wonder that BC demanded autonomy after seeing what happened before).

The board sided with Peddie and told Babcock to push the deal through.

ALL OF THIS WAS STILL 2 MONTHS BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE.

Babcock took the fall for the trade, while Peddie slunk back into the shadows.

Does anyone here REALLY believe that Babcock would have pulled the trigger on that deal in December when he still had LOADS of time to field other offers??

Then Babcock gets canned the following season before the trade deadline and Embry comes in and deals Jalen (a deal that Babcock had engineered) to the Knicks. Wow. What a hero.

Babcock wasn't "scared" to do anything. He had a plan and a vision and came into the shittiest situation in the league at that time.... and he STILL made some great moves.

He flipped Rafer for Mike James (who had the best year of his career in a Raps uni and worked beautifully with CB4).

He found Jose out of nowhere.

He drafted CV when almost no one else saw any kind of potential in him at all (and then watched him have a GREAT rookie season).

The man was asked to turn around a capped out team with a superstar who didn't want to play there anymore.... and he was asked to do it in ONE YEAR.

That's absolutely ridiculous. And there's no way in hell that anyone can tell me that they judge the quality of a GM in ONE off-season.

I really wish that I had saved some of those articles.... maybe I'll see if I can dig them up somewhere.
plus ten hundred million thousand
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:15 PM   #276 (permalink)
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To me the guy was ruined by the need to trade the guy that wanted Julius Erving instead of him. He might have recovered, but this town isn't exactly about that, so I'm guessing he didn't really have a chance.

And it has to be said that Toraps is the king of producing threads that never end. Sure they are all mostly the same thread, but it's a gift all the same.
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:59 PM   #277 (permalink)
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If people would just stop arguing and realize that I'm right they wouldn't be nearly as long!

Ha!
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Old 05-17-2010, 03:42 PM   #278 (permalink)
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If people would just stop arguing and realize that I'm right they wouldn't be nearly as long!

Ha!
I'm going to make a couple of points regarding draft picks.

Even if Babcock values picks, he did a shitty job of using them. If a noob GM had listened to what most scouts are suggesting, and took the best player available based on that, they'd probably get things right at least 1 out of 3 picks, especially if 2 of them are lottery picks (some talent will still be left). And even if they drafted based on need and followed scouts' rankings, they'd still probably get it right 1 out of 3 times. Babcock couldn't even do that.

In 2004, Babcock went against the grain and picked Haffa. Just embarrasing. And that's not hindsight. At the time, people knew it was a shitty pick.
In 2005, Babcock had 2 1st round picks. He used the 7th overall on CV, who was speculated by many to fall outside of the top 13 and might even have been available with the 2nd Raptor pick. Like Haffa, CV was taken earlier than expected. What did Babcock do with the 2nd pick? He used it on Joey Graham. At the time, that may not have looked too disgusting, but other elite teams had Granger ahead of Graham. In fact, some credible analysts had the Raps taking Granger at the 7th pick. After the top 5, the Lakers had Bynum and Granger as the next top players available. Mitch K. said it in an interview right before the Lakers picked Bynum. On a side note, Shaq is a dumbass for ever suggesting Mitch K. doesn't earn his cheque. Back on topic.

Now, in my opinion, 2005 is actually more annoying than the Haffa decision, even though Haffa was an epic fail. Babcock had 2 picks to play with. When you have 2 picks, it might be a good time to roll the dice with one of them. You can afford to. Of course, he might have thought CV was the gamble. And he should have realized Haffa was a total fail (I don't know what his excuse was, to be honest), so he didn't go after Bynum with the 7th pick. And then he didn't even go after Granger when he was still available outside the lottery. He should have walked away with one of those players. Not only did he miss out on Iggy, but he missed out on one of, or both, Granger and Bynum. I wouldn't have expected him to have the foresight to nab both, that's unfair. He's not in the same league as Mitch K., who would have taken both Bynum and Granger if the Lakers had the 7th and 16th picks. But it WAS realistic to expect Babcock to nab 1 of those 3 players (Iggy, Bynum, Granger). Just one. At the very least he should have nabbed Biedrins who was ranked higher than Haffa. Biedrins would have looked good alongside Bosh back in 2007 and 2008. So...much...drafting fail. Babcock's draft choices had an impact on this organization, and not in a good way. Having said that, I will concede that CV kept his head out of his ass long enough for the Raps to get something out of that pick. But CV is living up to what the scouts said: he is a player with character issues, who does not maximize his skill.

The bottom line is, we don't know for sure how things would have turned out had Babcock stayed. Maybe he would have pulled off some miraculous trade and turned the team around. Who knows? But I'm not convinced, especially since others within the organization did not appear to respect his position.


BC is not super awesome, but I'll take him over Babcock.
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Old 05-17-2010, 03:49 PM   #279 (permalink)
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You may not be saying BC isn't super awesome after this offseason. He hasn't failed yet. His teams have underachieved the last 2 years, and he has a chance to make something big happen this offseason.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:07 PM   #280 (permalink)
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You may not be saying BC isn't super awesome after this offseason. He hasn't failed yet. His teams have underachieved the last 2 years, and he has a chance to make something big happen this offseason.
His chances to make something big happen are only as good as his options. We'll see how many good options he'll have.
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