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Old 11-29-2012, 06:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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This is Head Coach Dwayne Casey's record after 82 games(technically a full season). That's 5 more wins than Brendan Malone(21) and 7 less than Kevin O'neill (33) who were both Raptors head coaches in the past,fired after 1 season. Even Jay Triano(who many people thought was a mistake as a head coach hiring) managed 33 wins in his first 82 games. Before I'd say its too early to fire him but now its fair game in my opinion,even though I don't think he's bad and has little to work with. My problems with Casey are as follows,

Doesn't manage the rookies playing time well (Ross,Valanciunas).
Terrible at drawing up late game offensive plays when the team desperately needs a basket
Elects to continue doing things that aren't working (two PG system,an 11 man deep rotation,failing to substitute ineffective/cold players)
Passive when needed to challenge the referees over missed calls and phantom fouls
Failing to make the proper adjustments to maintain a double digit lead when the Raptors are up early.

Some of these things are not directly his fault but he's the head coach and has final say at the end of the day. I think he should stick out the remainder of the season before being re-evaluated(unless they are dead last after the All-Star break) but I wouldn't be opposed to him getting the axe if the Raptors continue downwards. The grace period is over for Casey,now's the time to right the ship because as Kyle Lowry said " were not dead,but were five feet under"

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Old 11-29-2012, 08:11 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I totally agree with this.

All we heard last season was "imagine Casey had a full training camp" and "defense". If we are under 10 wins more or so by all star break, i think he needs to go, along with BC. It has to start from the top.

After 7 years, we need a new vision. A new GM with his own hiring of a coach.

Either way, We should immediately try to obtain a first round pick.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:23 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm just curious about one thing. I personally think Casey is a good coach. Does he make mistakes? Of course. I challenge anyone to name me a coach who doesn't make mistakes. Hell, Doc Rivers was a real mediocre coach in his Orlando tenure and learned a lot and adapted a lot in his tenure with Boston.

Anyways, my point is, it the coach's fault that he has been given poor personnel? Is it the coach's fault that his starting 3 man in his season's in charge have been: Dom McGuire, Kleiza, James Johnson, Alan Anderson and whatever other player that is 12/13th man in the league? Is it his fault that all that was preached from the front office was the need to play better offensive basketball (and all the talk about defence disappeared)?

Has Casey made mistakes? Yes. However, you need to take a lot harder of a look at what the man has been given to work with and ask yourself, is this just a piss poor team that no coach would be able to do well with.

As for your other mentions, Brendan Malone, while in charge of an expansion team had solid players on that team. They just weren't good or at the tail end of their career, but in terms of players, they were solid men (key word being men). Kevin O'Neill had talent (screwed up talent, but talent). Jay Triano had talent as well, but they just neglected defence all together (which was obvious).

Some of you guys need to gain at least a little objective perspective.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:52 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Casey is not the guy I find lacking at all. I saw this coming as soon as Colangelo opened his big mouth and instead of vocalizing the importance of building on defensive gains, made the need for offensive improvements the overriding issue at hand. Colangelo is poison. He ensured the need of the pg combo. He gave us Landry Fields as a free agent acquisition. And he was overly pre-occupied with getting a guy at the tail end of his career in order to put bums in the seats for a couple of years. Without a blueprint to work from, you will not be able to hire a coach that might be capable of taking his crap and winning 40 games, and you will make any decent coach look terrible. Colangelo has not offered many signs that he is working from any blueprint. He wings it. His greatest ability appears to be lessening the burden of his constant fuckups, after selling the same fuckups as amounting to something really special.

Not that I've been overly ecstatic with Casey this season, but if he takes the fall for BC it will be a terrible shame. He gets so many free passes it's not funny.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I wouldn't fire Casey. Last season I was impressed with him as were the vast majority here. Not willing to give up on him after 16 games this season. Besides, he's not going anywhere yet.

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Old 11-29-2012, 09:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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many question his rotation antics, but I remain positive he knows what he's doing simply becaause that the majority of us don't know what goes on in practice and in closed door meetings. Why didn't he start ross? maybe he's trying to develop him into a 6th man off the bench? or before, dudes like anderson and mcguire used to bully the kid hard in practice that he felt he wasnt ready.

I don't know if that's the case but the results of seeing davis, ross and jonas start to give it their all and limiting their bad decisions in the limited time they have is a good sign that something is going right in the development of our players and are working towards a solid spot in the rotation instead of being bestowed one.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:37 AM   #7 (permalink)
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. Hell, Doc Rivers was a real mediocre coach in his Orlando tenure
How could you conclude Doc Rivers was a " Real Mediocre" coach in Orlando,when he won his first and only NBA COTY award there after his first season?

The only thing that was mediocre was that roster(the names that standout to us now weren't any good and barely played back then)
1999-00 Orlando Magic Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

When he got a legit roster,he won a title but he did more with those scrubs than when he had McGrady,an actual all star and go to guy(which was the first sign he would turn out to be overrated).
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Anyways, my point is, it the coach's fault that he has been given poor personnel? Is it the coach's fault that his starting 3 man in his season's in charge have been: Dom McGuire, Kleiza, James Johnson, Alan Anderson and whatever other player that is 12/13th man in the league? Is it his fault that all that was preached from the front office was the need to play better offensive basketball (and all the talk about defence disappeared)?

Has Casey made mistakes? Yes. However, you need to take a lot harder of a look at what the man has been given to work with and ask yourself, is this just a piss poor team that no coach would be able to do well with.

As for your other mentions, Brendan Malone, while in charge of an expansion team had solid players on that team. They just weren't good or at the tail end of their career, but in terms of players, they were solid men (key word being men). Kevin O'Neill had talent (screwed up talent, but talent). Jay Triano had talent as well, but they just neglected defence all together (which was obvious).

Some of you guys need to gain at least a little objective perspective.
I respect your reply/opinion Claudius,

I already stated that " I don't think he's bad and has little to work with(as in not much talent)". What I'm suggesting is that,the kid gloves have to come off now and management really needs to analyze whether he's the right man for this job and team/franchise. A decision doesn't need to be made now(unless it gets really ugly) but they should at least be evaluating the position from that perspective. There's no doubt that he's a good coach but the question needs to be raised now after a full season,if he's the guy? LA just fired(after 5 games) Mike Brown. He had an NBA Finals appearance,followed by back to back 60+ wins seasons in 3 straight years. Is he a bad coach? No,but the Lakers decided(for whatever reasons) he wasn't the right guy for that job. That's all i'm saying about Casey.

You're right about Malone,O'Neill and Triano,but what matters the most is that the results are similar. Thinking back,O'Neill wasn't all that terrible,he probably should've got one more year. I rooted for Triano but he was WAY too optimistic,still like him though.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Casey is not the guy I find lacking at all. I saw this coming as soon as Colangelo opened his big mouth and instead of vocalizing the importance of building on defensive gains, made the need for offensive improvements the overriding issue at hand. Colangelo is poison. He ensured the need of the pg combo. He gave us Landry Fields as a free agent acquisition. And he was overly pre-occupied with getting a guy at the tailend of his career in order to put bums in the seats for a couple of years. Without a blueprint to work from, you will not be able to hire a coach that might be capable of taking his crap and winning 40 games, and you will make any decent coach look terrible. Colangelo has not offered many signs that he is working from any blueprint. He wings it. His greatest ability appears to be lessening the burden of his constant fuckups, after selling the same fuckups as amounting to something really special.

Not that I've been overly ecstatic with Casey this season, but if he takes the fall for BC it will be a terrible shame. He gets so many free passes it's not funny.
lol,Colangelo reminds me of Saul Goodman sometimes(Breaking Bad). Yes, BC has given Casey little to fuck all to work with but being a GM in TO for the Raps is tough,it would even be for Mitch Kupchak. Its all about drafting,you need to land that gem before you can even begin. BC has found 2nd and 3rd options,but has failed to land that 1st. 2006 was his chance but he came up short. I know Bargnani is a top 5 player from that draft today but in my mind,if you got #1 overall you absolutely have to get it right,can't gamble at #1. Bulls were very close to taking Beasley #1,imagine if they did or Orlando when they were close to taking Okafor #1? These were the regular players from Raps roster in Bargs rookie season

Andrea Bargnani
Chris Bosh
Jose Calderon
TJ Ford
Juan Dixon
Jorge Garbajosa

Joey Graham
Kris Humphries
Fred Jones
Darrick Martin
Rasho Nesterovic
Anthony Parker
Morris Peterson

The bold were not on the Raps prior to the draft or free agency but all were SG/SF. Andrea was a gamble,which hasn't paid off(I've accepted that and OK with it). My only question is,if the Raps weren't 100% sure he could be a C full time in this league,why draft a player who's naturally a PF that plays the same position as your star player(Bosh)? Hindsight or not,that's where they messed up,looking back. Hopefully they get the #1 this or next draft if they continue to be a disaster and redeem themselves.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I respect your reply/opinion Claudius,

I already stated that " I don't think he's bad and has little to work with(as in not much talent)". What I'm suggesting is that,the kid gloves have to come off now and management really needs to analyze whether he's the right man for this job and team/franchise. A decision doesn't need to be made now(unless it gets really ugly) but they should at least be evaluating the position from that perspective. There's no doubt that he's a good coach but the question needs to be raised now after a full season,if he's the guy? LA just fired(after 5 games) Mike Brown. He had an NBA Finals appearance,followed by back to back 60+ wins seasons in 3 straight years. Is he a bad coach? No,but the Lakers decided(for whatever reasons) he wasn't the right guy for that job. That's all i'm saying about Casey.

You're right about Malone,O'Neill and Triano,but what matters the most is that the results are similar. Thinking back,O'Neill wasn't all that terrible,he probably should've got one more year. I rooted for Triano but he was WAY too optimistic,still like him though.
I think my point is, why should you be evaluating now, when the team is essentially garbage? I don't even know why evaluating Casey would even be on the radar.

It's like evaluating a new manager at work when he has a poor staff that the director provided them. It's not the manager's fault that the staff is inept. The new manager stepped into a culture that the director created. Eventually, you got to look at who makes the decisions.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:47 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I totally agree with this.

All we heard last season was "imagine Casey had a full training camp" and "defense". If we are under 10 wins more or so by all star break, i think he needs to go, along with BC. It has to start from the top.

After 7 years, we need a new vision. A new GM with his own hiring of a coach.

Either way, We should immediately try to obtain a first round pick.
If we wait that long, the season will be done, no question.

We'd be about 10-43./
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:48 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I think my point is, why should you be evaluating now, when the team is essentially garbage? I don't even know why evaluating Casey would even be on the radar.
Fair enough,I understand where you're coming from now. As far as why evaluate now,despite a few injuries(to non key players other than Lowry,but then again Calderon is a capable starter right?)I think it's fair to start because this roster was assembled with the intent to make a playoff push and berth. This is what Colangelo and Casey talked about all summer,so now because they are failing at reaching their goal,we should blame it on the roster being garbage? Many of us Raptors fans had this team winning 40 games at least(at this rate they may not even hit 30) even though many writers and analysts had TO winning high 20's,low's 30's so it's kind of a disappointment to see them off to a miserable start. I'm not calling for Casey's head,I Like him,think he's a good coach and should finish the year,but there's no harm in taking the next step in determining whether he's the right coach for this team or not. It's actually the smart thing to do. If they had this approach with Triano they probably would've moved on alot sooner.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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We have as much talent as half the teams in the NBA. It's Casey's job to teach them how to win.

Pound the Turf and go develop your fucking golf game. That's what I say to Casey.

Do you think he took this job thinking...boy, I won't be able to win with these guys - 3-13 might be a decent start in my second year. Fuck no. He took the job thinking he could win. And he hasn't been able to. He has failed. He said as much at the start of the year. "This year we're going to play to win". He believed they could.

Excuses are for losers.

As far as raw coaching; working the officials, working the opponents. That's where coaches perform. One thing I really picked up when we played Charlotte was how well their new Rookie coach worked the officials. He never whined, but he was constantly communicating with them, protesting, acknowledging.

He was performing. Casey does not.

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Old 11-29-2012, 12:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The Knicks are garbage

Woodson Steps in, they begin to win

Bobcats are garbage

New coach steps in, they begin to win

Sixers are garbage

Collins steps in, they begin to win

Pacers are garbage

Fire their coach, they begin to win

It's pretty obvious when you have a bad coach. I think it's obvious. The shitty talent level a team has all of a sudden looks pretty good when a capable coach is hired.

The worst team in the history of basketball is right now all excited because a season later, they still have the reality of a playoff push ahead of them. Something we've already lost after 15 games. It's pathetic and depressing.

We're still in Development Purgatory where everybody is pounding rocks.

This is pro-sports. If your season is over prior to a quarter of the season actually being over, it should be mandatory that your coach is fired.

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Old 11-29-2012, 12:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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We have as much talent as half the teams in the NBA. It's Casey's job to teach them how to win.

Pound the Turf and go develop your fucking golf game. That's what I say to Casey.

Do you think he took this job thinking...boy, I won't be able to win with these guys - 3-13 might be a decent start in my second year. Fuck no. He took the job thinking he could win. And he hasn't been able to. He has failed. He said as much at the start of the year. This year we're going to play to win.

Excuses are for losers.

As far as raw coaching; working the officials, working the opponents. That's where coaches perform. One thing I really picked up when we played Charlotte was how well their new Rookie coach worked the officials. He never whined, but he was constantly communicating with them, protesting, acknowledging.

He was performing. Casey does not.
Pretty much this.

I would add that I think Casey is either too old and follows an outdated conservative style, or he's a company man plain and simple. I've been very upset at the lack of noticeable frustration on the part of both Casey and the players, but especially Casey because he's rationalizing off his responsibility by specifically blaming our talent issues rather than taking responsibility for how shit our end of game and out of timeout plays have been.

I don't think anyone could really disagree that Casey, more than any other individual*, is responsible for the greatest share of our losses. He simply doesn't adapt quickly enough for the NBA game.

*BC is hard to substitute here because we really don't know the kinds of deals he does or doesn't have available to him, also, more and more teams seem to want to protect their assets even if it's a bad deal, even if it's more beneficial for that team to drop talent and incur losses for the long run, sort of like us, so acquiring talent outside of the draft has absolutely been harder the last few years. As well, though he has decision making power; he relies on information provided by others to a much larger degree than Casey does.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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P.S. I would kill to get Nate McMillan up here. He should be the organization's favourite for the position; experienced, kind but firm, good Xs and Os.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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P.S. I would kill to get Nate McMillan up here. He should be the organization's favourite for the position; experienced, kind but firm, good Xs and Os.

If we were getting a new HC, which we aren't.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If the idea of quickening the pace was solely Casey's idea, then I'm on board for firing him. That idea has given this team little chance of succeeding. And I'm just not sure he wasn't talked into it by a meddling GM. I just want the GM to take the hit first and foremost, and let things settle from there. My worry is that firing the coach just gives Bryan one more life.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:31 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If the idea of quickening the pace was solely Casey's idea, then I'm on board for firing him. That idea has given this team little chance of succeeding. And I'm just not sure he wasn't talked into it by a meddling GM. I just want the GM to take the hit first and foremost, and let things settle from there. My worry is that firing the coach just gives Bryan one more life.

If this continues there is no way Colangelo stays after this season if he lasts that long. The outcry from fans is starting to trckle down to the owners and it'll only get louder if this keeps going. He's on his last legs here. It sadens me that it hasn't worked out here for him.


I predict Stefanski will be our GM come next summer.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:48 PM   #20 (permalink)
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This team is not losing because of Casey. FFS people a new coach is not making us a champion and is not going to help on the road trip.
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