2010-11 RF Player Report Card - Andrea Bargnani - Page 3

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View Poll Results: Grade
A 1 1.64%
B 13 21.31%
C 24 39.34%
D 14 22.95%
E 3 4.92%
F 6 9.84%
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:58 AM   #41 (permalink)
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nobody deserves an A on this team.
That i agree with. I said that exact thing in one of the other report card threads.

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B is what he should get imo. An A is the ceiling which he's not close to yet, i hope. Nobody on this team deserves an A.

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Old 07-12-2011, 11:20 AM   #42 (permalink)
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For me, scoring offense is graded on efficiency. Bargs is an inefficient scorer. The numbers don't lie. He's not even close to being an elite scorer. The only reason that he gets his PPG numbers is because he is such a black hole that he shoots a very high percentage of the instances when he touches the ball.

The other aspects of his offense (setting screens, passing, ballhandling, driving, offensive rebounding, movement off the ball) are all weak. He is just as one dimensional on offense as he is on defense (decent post defense, weak at everything else).

He gets a D on offense and a D for defense. He's not a good NBA player in my books, and doesn't show much progress from year to year, either.

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Old 07-12-2011, 11:49 AM   #43 (permalink)
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For me, scoring offense is graded on efficiency. Bargs is an inefficient scorer. The numbers don't lie. He's not even close to being an elite scorer. The only reason that he gets his PPG numbers is because he is such a black hole that he shoots a very high percentage of the instances when he touches the ball.

The other aspects of his offense (setting screens, passing, ballhandling, driving, offensive rebounding, movement off the ball) are all weak. He is just as one dimensional on offense as he is on defense (decent post defense, weak at everything else).

He gets a D on offense and a D for defense. He's not a good NBA player in my books, and doesn't show much progress from year to year, either.
Actually, Bargnani was best on the entire team in terms of getting to the line (FTA/36). He and Derozan had similar FTA rates and similar USG%'s, so you could say he co-led the team. He does have abilities - it is his choices and effort I question.

Plus, on this team, it's hard to rag on someone for being inefficient. Besides the two gems at PF (AJ + ED), most of the team is pretty inefficient. Bargnani ranks ahead of Bayless, Derozan, Weems, Jack (when he was here), and of course Reggie and Alabi in terms of eFG%. In TS% he ranks ahead of all of the above except Bayless, plus Calderon, JJ, Kleiza, Ajinca and Dorsey. The only players (still with the team) who rank above him in both categories are Amir Johnson, Ed Davis, and Leandro Barbosa (by 0.6% in TS%).

So while I agree he could be SO much better on offense, given his talents, he is certainly not as inefficient as some make him out to be. Inefficient for your franchise player? Sure, but he was never going to be that.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Bargnani doesn't take to many bad shots. He's rushed around the rim though.

I like him offensively, nobody else on this team can get a shot off effectively it seems.

Defensively, one on one he's an above average defender on the block, sadly, there are 5 players on the court and he is pretty much useless unless its a classic post up situation.

If he can't change that, he won't ever be anymore than an ok bench guy to me.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:49 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Actually, Bargnani was best on the entire team in terms of getting to the line (FTA/36). He and Derozan had similar FTA rates and similar USG%'s, so you could say he co-led the team. He does have abilities - it is his choices and effort I question.

Plus, on this team, it's hard to rag on someone for being inefficient. Besides the two gems at PF (AJ + ED), most of the team is pretty inefficient. Bargnani ranks ahead of Bayless, Derozan, Weems, Jack (when he was here), and of course Reggie and Alabi in terms of eFG%. In TS% he ranks ahead of all of the above except Bayless, plus Calderon, JJ, Kleiza, Ajinca and Dorsey. The only players (still with the team) who rank above him in both categories are Amir Johnson, Ed Davis, and Leandro Barbosa (by 0.6% in TS%).

So while I agree he could be SO much better on offense, given his talents, he is certainly not as inefficient as some make him out to be. Inefficient for your franchise player? Sure, but he was never going to be that.
Lets see how Bargnani stacked up to players not on 22 win teams:

Below league average TS%: 54.2% to 53.2%
Below league average eFG%: 49.8% to 48.0%
Below league average FTA/FGA: 0.305 to 0.300

He was a below average scorer last season, which is supposed to be his strength.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:02 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
Lets see how Bargnani stacked up to players not on 22 win teams:

Below league average TS%: 54.2% to 53.2%
Below league average eFG%: 49.8% to 48.0%
Below league average FTA/FGA: 0.305 to 0.300

He was a below average scorer last season, which is supposed to be his strength.

Come on, even i have to say you're splitting hairs here. He was an average scorer going by those numbers. Which is still not a good thing for a guy so one dimensional.
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:01 PM   #47 (permalink)
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FTA/FGA is about average. I'll give you that one.

The differences in the other two categories are definitely below average. Just a percentage point or two can make a big difference.

For example, by comparing teams instead of players:

Atlanta was ranked #14 as a team with a 54.2 TS%
compared to Toronto at #23 with a 53.3 TS%

Utah was ranked #15 as a team with a 49.8 eFG%
compared to Sacramento ranked #26 with a 47.97 eFG%

Or, by simply ranking players:

There were 100 players in the NBA that averaged 30+ minutes per game for 40+ games.

Of those 100 players Bargnani ranked #75 in TS% and #81 in eFG%.

DanH is comparing Bargnani to Calderon and DeRozan, who are the other two Raptors that averaged 30+ minutes over 40+ games.

Calderon ranked #84 in TS% and #71 in eFG%.
DeRozan ranked #77 in TS% and #88 in eFG%.

...not exactly a tough crowd to be compared to.
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:05 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
FTA/FGA is about average. I'll give you that one.

The differences in the other two categories are definitely below average. Just a percentage point or two can make a big difference.

For example, by comparing teams instead of players:

Atlanta was ranked #14 as a team with a 54.2 TS%
compared to Toronto at #23 with a 53.3 TS%

Utah was ranked #15 as a team with a 49.8 eFG%
compared to Sacramento ranked #26 with a 47.97 eFG%

Or, by simply ranking players:

There were 100 players in the NBA that averaged 30+ minutes per game for 40+ games.

Of those 100 players Bargnani ranked #75 in TS% and #81 in eFG%.

DanH is comparing Bargnani to Calderon and DeRozan, who are the other two Raptors that averaged 30+ minutes over 40+ games.

Calderon ranked #84 in TS% and #71 in eFG%.
DeRozan ranked #77 in TS% and #88 in eFG%.

...not exactly a tough crowd to be compared to.
those stats aren't wholistic barometers to go by...... it's extremely narrow-minded to simply go by that. I'm sure you're aware of this, but you're making it seem like your post is the final say on the matter.
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:09 PM   #49 (permalink)
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those stats aren't wholistic barometers to go by...... it's extremely narrow-minded to simply go by that. I'm sure you're aware of this, but you're making it seem like your post is the final say on the matter.
Not at all. I believe what I saw with my own eyes. I think Bargnani is an inefficient scorer because that's what I saw in games.

I'm just replying to a post that claimed statistical evidence supporting the notion that Bargnani is not an inefficient scorer.

So, I took a closer look at the statistical evidence provided and showed that it did not support the position that Bargnani is not an inefficient scorer. In fact, if anything it shows the opposite.
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:16 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Not at all. I believe what I saw with my own eyes. I think Bargnani is an inefficient scorer because that's what I saw in games.

I'm just replying to a post that claimed statistical evidence supporting the notion that Bargnani is not an inefficient scorer.

So, I took a closer look at the statistical evidence provided and showed that it did not support the position that Bargnani is not an inefficient scorer. In fact, if anything it shows the opposite.
well, I'd suggest you're comparing apples to oranges.... you're not taking into account positional difference, team roles, defensive focus.....

watching with my own eyes, there were far too many stretches where Bargnani was the only one capable of consistently scoring the basketball..... sometimes the emphasis on efficiency is overstated especially on a bad team. In a better offensive system, where our young players learn to move more without the ball, I'm confident Bargnani could become more efficient. Very few of his teammates can be given the ball and expected to even get a quality shot off like he can.... though we relied far too often on that and it shows in his numbers.
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:20 PM   #51 (permalink)
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well, I'd suggest you're comparing apples to oranges.... you're not taking into account positional difference, team roles, defensive focus.....
Like I said before, I'm simply replying to one specific post.

I'm not attempting to write an encyclopedic analysis of Andrea Bargnani the basketball player. That is not a realistic expectation of anyone's posts on this forum. I wonder why that standard should be applied to my posts.

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Originally Posted by carp View Post
watching with my own eyes, there were far too many stretches where Bargnani was the only one capable of consistently scoring the basketball..... sometimes the emphasis on efficiency is overstated especially on a bad team. In a better offensive system, where our young players learn to move more without the ball, I'm confident Bargnani could become more efficient. Very few of his teammates can be given the ball and expected to even get a quality shot off like he can.... though we relied far too often on that and it shows in his numbers.
These are all excuses for Bargs' inefficiency. They imply that Bargs was indeed an inefficient scorer this past season, as I originally proposed. I'm glad we agree on this point.
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:34 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Like I said before, I'm simply replying to one specific post.

I'm not attempting to write an encyclopedic analysis of Andrea Bargnani the basketball player. That is not a realistic expectation of anyone's posts on this forum. I wonder why that standard should be applied to my posts.


These are all excuses for Bargs' inefficiency. They imply that Bargs was indeed an inefficient scorer this past season, as I originally proposed. I'm glad we agree on this point.
we do agree on this point... but I'm saying it's a foolish barometer to buy all in on. Glad we agree!

All kidding aside, I recognize you were only replying to a post.... and there is no need for an encyclopedic analysis as I'm sure it would still be faulty. Bargnani gets far too much negative criticism given the entire team was awful.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:49 AM   #53 (permalink)
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This guy frustrates so much. I am also a fan of his.
Heres hoping a more strict coach will change his ability to hustle.
The guy can shoot and he can put the ball on the floor. He has every bit of potential to be a dirk. But will he rise to it.
I rated him a C, would have been a D but the guys has a crazy skill set.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:19 AM   #54 (permalink)
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He is just as one dimensional on offense as he is on defense (decent post defense, weak at everything else).
This is what I was responding to. You said he was one-dimensional on offense, I showed he was at least average in one aspect (ie, drawing fouls by driving, or posting up, or however). Which you admitted later. So problem solved there.

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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
Like I said before, I'm simply replying to one specific post.

These are all excuses for Bargs' inefficiency. They imply that Bargs was indeed an inefficient scorer this past season, as I originally proposed. I'm glad we agree on this point.
I never said he wasn't inefficient. I said everyone else on the team was too (outside of a couple players). This points to perhaps at least a portion of his inefficiency stemming from how the team plays (offensive sets, no true star, etc), rather than assuming that the entire team is just naturally inefficient. Actually, my exact words were that it is hard to rag on a guy for being inefficient on this team, for that exact reason.

As such, I expect that since you gave Bargnani a D on offense, you will be giving everyone else on the team with comparable efficiency a similar grade (on offense). Or am I wrong?
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:30 AM   #55 (permalink)
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This is what I was responding to. You said he was one-dimensional on offense, I showed he was at least average in one aspect (ie, drawing fouls by driving, or posting up, or however). Which you admitted later. So problem solved there.



I never said he wasn't inefficient. I said everyone else on the team was too (outside of a couple players). This points to perhaps at least a portion of his inefficiency stemming from how the team plays (offensive sets, no true star, etc), rather than assuming that the entire team is just naturally inefficient. Actually, my exact words were that it is hard to rag on a guy for being inefficient on this team, for that exact reason.

As such, I expect that since you gave Bargnani a D on offense, you will be giving everyone else on the team with comparable efficiency a similar grade (on offense). Or am I wrong?
I agree with your posts..... it's difficult to look objectively at Bargnani on this team for many, but he like many can benefit greatly from more focused coaching and a better emphasis on physicality, both offensively and defensively. I'd like to see AB look to 'punish' defenders more down low, but I feel that about all of our players. Defensively, I'm tired of the hands up approach, and hope Casey can get our perimeter players to actually lay some body this year.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:45 PM   #56 (permalink)
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This is what I was responding to. You said he was one-dimensional on offense, I showed he was at least average in one aspect (ie, drawing fouls by driving, or posting up, or however). Which you admitted later. So problem solved there.



I never said he wasn't inefficient. I said everyone else on the team was too (outside of a couple players). This points to perhaps at least a portion of his inefficiency stemming from how the team plays (offensive sets, no true star, etc), rather than assuming that the entire team is just naturally inefficient. Actually, my exact words were that it is hard to rag on a guy for being inefficient on this team, for that exact reason.

As such, I expect that since you gave Bargnani a D on offense, you will be giving everyone else on the team with comparable efficiency a similar grade (on offense). Or am I wrong?
Obviously, someone like Calderon will get a higher grade since he does so well setting up teammates. Bayless also sets others up well, though not as well as Calderon.

Reggie, Amir, Ed Davis all set solid screens and get offensive rebounds, so they get higher grades for doing those things well.

Bargs adds nothing on offense except scoring. So, if he doesn't even do that well what good is he?

Bargs is inefficent because he takes far too many long 2s. Whether or not that's because of poor coaching is up for debate, I wouldn't grade him higher because of it, though.
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:06 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Obviously, someone like Calderon will get a higher grade since he does so well setting up teammates. Bayless also sets others up well, though not as well as Calderon.

Reggie, Amir, Ed Davis all set solid screens and get offensive rebounds, so they get higher grades for doing those things well.

Bargs adds nothing on offense except scoring. So
, if he doesn't even do that well what good is he?

Bargs is inefficent because he takes far too many long 2s. Whether or not that's because of poor coaching is up for debate, I wouldn't grade him higher because of it, though.
that's simply not true.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:24 PM   #58 (permalink)
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So what does he do? He sets some screens, but it's like pulling teeth sometimes. He stretches the defense when he is hitting shots, but if he needs a guy like Reggie in the lineup then that doesn't mean much, since the defense will be cheating off of one guy anyway.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:31 PM   #59 (permalink)
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i'll give Bargs spacing, but the amount of spacing he'd create would be decided by the time he took his second shot. Bargs 21 points is just as effective as sharif abdur rahim's. the only difference was that sar's came with consistency.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:49 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Bargnani's effort deserves F... all. In the words of Derick Fisher "It's a non-starter."
I wanna say something else cause I see people repeat old mantras:
He DID NOT camp out at 3pt line as much last season. And that's the problem. 3pt shot used to be his strongest weapon, causing most match up problems. But last season they worked to broaden his game, forcing him nearer the rim. It doesn't matter how much AB evolves as a post player, he will never cause the same problems from the low block. And after all the talk of playing down low for Italy and amazing progress towards the complete game, we could witness Tayshaun Prince defending Bargnani in the post without any difficulties what so ever! I would encourage AB to develop his only strength, so he can excel at something, rather than trying to become all-around below average player.
Nothing to say about Bargnani's D.
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