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Old 02-09-2011, 06:21 PM   #81 (permalink)
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we have a team full of 1 dimensional guys.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:22 PM   #82 (permalink)
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bingo.
lets slay the leading scorer.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:24 PM   #83 (permalink)
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that same thing can be said about all of the raptors, really.
when Jose isnt on, he's a liability... when Weems is chucking, he's a liability... when Barbosa is playing recklessly, he's a liability.... when Reggie isnt rebounding, he's a liability.
Those guys only struggle when they're battling injuries.... when they aren't healthy.

Bargs struggles because he doesn't try.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:27 PM   #84 (permalink)
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we have a team full of 1 dimensional guys.
exactly, and BC is notorious for thinking that he can just acquire these guys as easy fixes...

ill give him credit for drafting DeMar, Ed Davis and resigning Amir tho as they can effect the game in more than 1 way, so maybe hes finally realizing it wasnt working.

thats a good core to have and we should be in a great position to acquire some more young, versatile talent.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:29 PM   #85 (permalink)
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we have a team full of 1 dimensional guys.
Not sure I'd agree with that.

Weems, Davis, Amir & Barbosa are all capable of playing both ways. DD has shown flashes too.

Once again... the difference here is that EVERYONE else on the team TRIES.... Bargs doesn't.

elT hit it right on the head in his first post.... ONE double-digit rebounding game this season! ONE! While a guy like Love can grab 30 in one game!

Is Kevin Love more athletic than Bargs? Hell no... but his effort every game is just through the roof.. and he's a smart, tough player so he gets it done (and he shoots the 3 too!).

I really can't think of a single plausible excuse for Bargs... not a one.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:43 PM   #86 (permalink)
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With what exactly?

I just don't see a point in keeping a guy like Bargs who just doesn't want to try.... sets a horrible example for the rest of the team. So he may blow up for 28 pts once every 7 or 8 games... big deal. If you give Sonny Weems 18-20 shots/gm I'm sure that he avgs 20pts/gm too.

I've seen WAY more from Ed Davis in ONE year than I have from Bargs in five.

That in itself in pretty sad.
i disagree with almost all of what you said. i don't see the point in tossing out a guy who's not expensive for his skill set or position when you won't get anything in return. i don't see why he can't have value going forward, and i think you undervalue how having a completely terrible team around a finesse big man is going to make him look terrible too.

i don't agree about amir or reggie having to do more. they are pros. this is what is being asked. both have done a great job so far this year. i have no idea how it is a problem for them, apart from it being a problem for all of our guys to play for such a shitty rebuilding team.

i don't think it has anything to do with other teams having figured him out. he's demoralized, possibly injured and in a massive slump. we are terrible. it's no surprise that he's playing very poorly. plus, when he is playing the way i described in my previous post, you can't figure him out. he truly is unstoppable.

now before people start to accuse me of saying he's great - he's not. he's a one dimensional finesse big man with little d and rebounding talent. i agree completely with that. but until i see a really good offer i have no interest in taking back some equally shitty big contract that has no upside because we think he doesn't try hard enough. that's not cutting your losses, that's selling low and getting a crap return. i don't think we're going to get an expiring deal and picks at this stage, or even just a straight cap dump. and i'm not interested in taking back a long term deal. i'd rather hold on to the one we have and see what we can get with a more complete compliment of players.

and that point about davis - no idea what you are getting at. he's a completely different player that hardly has any offensive game.
i like him and all, but to say he's given us more with his 6&6 or whatever it is than Bargs has in 5 years is just plain wrong.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:08 PM   #87 (permalink)
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i disagree with almost all of what you said. i don't see the point in tossing out a guy who's not expensive for his skill set or position when you won't get anything in return. i don't see why he can't have value going forward, and i think you undervalue how having a completely terrible team around a finesse big man is going to make him look terrible too.

i don't agree about amir or reggie having to do more. they are pros. this is what is being asked. both have done a great job so far this year. i have no idea how it is a problem for them, apart from it being a problem for all of our guys to play for such a shitty rebuilding team.

i don't think it has anything to do with other teams having figured him out. he's demoralized, possibly injured and in a massive slump. we are terrible. it's no surprise that he's playing very poorly. plus, when he is playing the way i described in my previous post, you can't figure him out. he truly is unstoppable.

now before people start to accuse me of saying he's great - he's not. he's a one dimensional finesse big man with little d and rebounding talent. i agree completely with that. but until i see a really good offer i have no interest in taking back some equally shitty big contract that has no upside because we think he doesn't try hard enough. that's not cutting your losses, that's selling low and getting a crap return. i don't think we're going to get an expiring deal and picks at this stage, or even just a straight cap dump. and i'm not interested in taking back a long term deal. i'd rather hold on to the one we have and see what we can get with a more complete compliment of players.

and that point about davis - no idea what you are getting at. he's a completely different player that hardly has any offensive game.
i like him and all, but to say he's given us more with his 6&6 or whatever it is than Bargs has in 5 years is just plain wrong.
That's an assumption. I don't see why a team with a dynamic wing player capable of penetrating and dishing wouldn't be VERY interested in a player like Bargs. On a team like PHX, UTH, NOH he'd be gold. I'm sure that there are some others as well (maybe WAS? GS?) who would be interested as well. The question right now is whether or not he's even been shopped at all or whether he's been considered "untouchable".

Re: Amir & Reggie.... asking those guys to grab 15-20 rebounds/gm to "cover for Bargs" in addition to their regular duties is what I'm talking about. Amir Johnson being forced to guard Bogut because Bargs is too soft to do it is what I'm talking about.

Re: Davis.... This kid has more "natural bball instinct" than Bargs does. His timing (for rebounds and blocks) is excellent and he moves into open spots on offense where he can be most effective. He's come into quite a few games and changed the entire complexion of the team with his effort.

'trane... you should know that I have no problem championing players who aren't the most popular ones on the team (Haffa, Joey, Weems).... but again.. at least they TRIED. I have no patience for a player who doesn't give it his all. It's why I hated Vince. It's why I hate Hedo.

If we have to agree to disagree then I'm fine with that. All I know is that Bargs has made most Raptor games unwatchable for me as of late. I can't stand his lackadaisacal demeanor.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:11 PM   #88 (permalink)
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That's an assumption. I don't see why a team with a dynamic wing player capable of penetrating and dishing wouldn't be VERY interested in a player like Bargs. On a team like PHX, UTH, NOH he'd be gold. I'm sure that there are some others as well (maybe WAS? GS?) who would be interested as well. The question right now is whether or not he's even been shopped at all or whether he's been considered "untouchable".

Re: Amir & Reggie.... asking those guys to grab 15-20 rebounds/gm to "cover for Bargs" in addition to their regular duties is what I'm talking about. Amir Johnson being forced to guard Bogut because Bargs is too soft to do it is what I'm talking about.

Re: Davis.... This kid has more "natural bball instinct" than Bargs does. His timing (for rebounds and blocks) is excellent and he moves into open spots on offense where he can be most effective. He's come into quite a few games and changed the entire complexion of the team with his effort.

'trane... you should know that I have no problem championing players who aren't the most popular ones on the team (Haffa, Joey, Weems).... but again.. at least they TRIED. I have no patience for a player who doesn't give it his all. It's why I hated Vince. It's why I hate Hedo.

If we have to agree to disagree then I'm fine with that. All I know is that Bargs has made most Raptor games unwatchable for me as of late. I can't stand his lackadaisacal demeanor.
So lets just keep Bargs and get a dynamic wing player...

Done and Done
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:14 PM   #89 (permalink)
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So lets just keep Bargs and get a dynamic wing player...

Done and Done
I've been waiting for that since Vince left.... so pardon me if I'm a little skeptical now.

Even so... getting that guy wouldn't solve our defensive issues.

We really need a dynamic PG AND a beastly defensive C.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:16 PM   #90 (permalink)
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here's my entire problem: he can go out and get double digit rebounding numbers. We've seen him do it. It just requires the effort, the focus, and the interest. It also requires the awareness of what it takes to win. That's what is missing and what is so disturbing. And there is simply no role, or team that can sustain that, particularly when Mr. leading scorer also has one of the worst shooting percentages on the team, one of the worst turnover numbers on the team, the inability to develop any chemistry with anyone over six years.

i love the guy when he is on as well. But even then he still has to have some awareness of the game as a whole. He is not Jamaal Crawford. He is a starting big, and even if he was a big coming off the bench, there is no room for him to just be a streaky shooter, unless we want to go looking for a guard that can man the paint. It's just ludicrous. Either he shows that he can attain some acceptable level of consistency, or he needs to go.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:21 PM   #91 (permalink)
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That's an assumption. I don't see why a team with a dynamic wing player capable of penetrating and dishing wouldn't be VERY interested in a player like Bargs. On a team like PHX, UTH, NOH he'd be gold. I'm sure that there are some others as well (maybe WAS? GS?) who would be interested as well. The question right now is whether or not he's even been shopped at all or whether he's been considered "untouchable".

Re: Amir & Reggie.... asking those guys to grab 15-20 rebounds/gm to "cover for Bargs" in addition to their regular duties is what I'm talking about. Amir Johnson being forced to guard Bogut because Bargs is too soft to do it is what I'm talking about.

Re: Davis.... This kid has more "natural bball instinct" than Bargs does. His timing (for rebounds and blocks) is excellent and he moves into open spots on offense where he can be most effective. He's come into quite a few games and changed the entire complexion of the team with his effort.

'trane... you should know that I have no problem championing players who aren't the most popular ones on the team (Haffa, Joey, Weems).... but again.. at least they TRIED. I have no patience for a player who doesn't give it his all. It's why I hated Vince. It's why I hate Hedo.

If we have to agree to disagree then I'm fine with that. All I know is that Bargs has made most Raptor games unwatchable for me as of late. I can't stand his lackadaisacal demeanor.
so how is what i'm saying an assumption while what you;re saying is not? your entire point is a series of assumptions.

you assume he isn't trying. he could be injured, he could be told to play out at the perimiter, he could begiving his all but this is all he has... these aren't great things, but we don't know any of them to be true or false.

you assume that asking reggie and amir to play defense against big men and rebound is them being forced, when this may not be the case at all. i would say that this is precisely what their job is, nothing more.

you assume that davis has more bball instincts than bargs, but he regularly gets abused by opposing bigs (5 fouls and 2 pts against milwaukee in 26 mins is hardly impressive. he's had lots of games like that). i like him, but crowning him as superior after a few months is a huge assumption.

you assume that a team with a dynamic wing player would be interested and you assume that bc isn't willing to trade bargs, but you have no idea whether anyone has inquired about him, whether bc is has initiated any conversations, whether he is indeed untouchable, whether we could acquire the right kinds of guys to put beside him next year, etc.

all of these are assumptions, and big ones at that.

what is making the raps unwatchable is that almsot every one of our players is demoralized because we are a shitty rebuilding team. there's no enthusiasm, little talent, and a couple of years of crappiness in front of us. we all know it, so we look to mini successes like amir's play and the possible emergence of dd and the potential defensive skills of davis and celebrate them. but the reality is that the whole team is no good, and the only thing we can hang our hats on is patience.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:25 PM   #92 (permalink)
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what is making the raps unwatchable is that almsot every one of our players is demoralized because we are a shitty rebuilding team. there's no enthusiasm, little talent, and a couple of years of crappiness in front of us. we all know it, so we look to mini successes like amir's play and the possible emergence of dd and the potential defensive skills of davis and celebrate them. but the reality is that the whole team is no good, and the only thing we can hang our hats on is patience.
Exact-a-fucking-mundo, brother!
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:36 PM   #93 (permalink)
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so how is what i'm saying an assumption while what you;re saying is not? your entire point is a series of assumptions.

you assume he isn't trying. he could be injured, he could be told to play out at the perimiter, he could begiving his all but this is all he has... these aren't great things, but we don't know any of them to be true or false.

you assume that asking reggie and amir to play defense against big men and rebound is them being forced, when this may not be the case at all. i would say that this is precisely what their job is, nothing more.

you assume that davis has more bball instincts than bargs, but he regularly gets abused by opposing bigs (5 fouls and 2 pts against milwaukee in 26 mins is hardly impressive. he's had lots of games like that). i like him, but crowning him as superior after a few months is a huge assumption.

you assume that a team with a dynamic wing player would be interested and you assume that bc isn't willing to trade bargs, but you have no idea whether anyone has inquired about him, whether bc is has initiated any conversations, whether he is indeed untouchable, whether we could acquire the right kinds of guys to put beside him next year, etc.

all of these are assumptions, and big ones at that.

what is making the raps unwatchable is that almsot every one of our players is demoralized because we are a shitty rebuilding team. there's no enthusiasm, little talent, and a couple of years of crappiness in front of us. we all know it, so we look to mini successes like amir's play and the possible emergence of dd and the potential defensive skills of davis and celebrate them. but the reality is that the whole team is no good, and the only thing we can hang our hats on is patience.
If Bargs is injured then I'm absolutely mystified as to why he hasn't been sat down to heal properly. Why in God's name would we play him at all? To try to win 25 games instead of 18?

I trust that you know what I mean when I talk about Reggie and Amir.... they have their own responsibilities on the court. If their partner in the paint isn't pulling his weight defenisvely it makes their lives A LOT more difficult.

While it's true that neither of us are inside BC's office I don't think that it's an outrageous idea to think that Bargs might have some value SOMEWHERE around the league. You're right though.. maybe BC has had some offers and simply hasn't liked what he's seen yet.

As for your last point... I have no problem watching this team lose. I predicted that we'd probably win 28 games this year. What I can't STAND is the lack of effort that I've seen from the guy who is supposed to be the face of the team now. It's flat out nauseating. And there are times when I honestly think that his shitty body language affects the other guys on the floor... and THAT is something that I don't want to see over the next few years here.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:37 PM   #94 (permalink)
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he's not the face of the team. he's just the only guy we had at the start of the year that had any kind of name recognition.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:51 PM   #95 (permalink)
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i will resume the entire barg caractere :
"not a big deal"

that say all you need to know about a player.
so get ride of him even just one player + a pick (or 2nd), at this point i don't care !

he become useless for the future.
so not a big deal if we trade him.
act with him like he act with all.
NOT A BIG DEAL !
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:06 PM   #96 (permalink)
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if we release Bargnani would we be able to get a number one pick in the future instead
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:11 PM   #97 (permalink)
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i predicted at the beggining of the season that he will average 21 and 7.5
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:06 PM   #98 (permalink)
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this is BC addressing the ACC seat holders before the season started -http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/bc-addresses-crowd-season-seat-holder-event-16355.html

Quote:
Q ... Bargs as the #1 option ...
BC... he def can be. Ppl knock him for his rebounding but its the style that we play that doesn't allow him to get many rebounds. Plus we had CHRIS on the block. Chris is NOT a post player, he's more of a mid-post. With Chris now not demanding the ball and making it a more stagnant offense, Andrea is going to play his game. He's going to beat guys down the floor and with the movement on offense will catch many guys off guard and exploit them.
Had a detailed convo with Andrea at seasons end, sat him down and said (amongst other things) you've GOTTA get better at rebounding. Says Andrea has the size to be a good rebounder but will have to do it by putting his body on guys and boxing out. Other guys get drawn to rebounds by their athleticism, Andrea's going to have to do it with SMARTS and his SIZE...and is capable.
So it would seem BC has had a bigger role in mind for Andrea, and demanded personally that he get more rebounds, so I guess the GM expected better numbers and an overall improvement in his game.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:10 PM   #99 (permalink)
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we all hoped and had higher expectations. and what is a gm supposed to say? "uh, well, we lost chris, and andrea's only a decent one dimensional guy, so he'll probably suck this year and our team will be really crappy with no interior d and rebounding. really, uh, i have no idea why anyone will want to come to our games this year. we're in a total rebuild and i have no choice but to list andrea as the go-to guy since i have no one else."
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:14 PM   #100 (permalink)
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this is BC addressing the ACC seat holders before the season started -http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/bc-addresses-crowd-season-seat-holder-event-16355.html



So it would seem BC has had a bigger role in mind for Andrea, and demanded personally that he get more rebounds, so I guess the GM expected better numbers and an overall improvement in his game.
Had every right and responsibility to do so and was bang on. I just hope BC has waken up and goes after real building blocks for this team. He must be disappointed with what he has seen so far even though he might not say that. It would be good that it is so because it might actually make him go and do his job much much better. Starting with fire sale and a real coach.
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