Kleiza needs to leave Toronto. - Page 3

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View Poll Results: Where should Kleiza be?
Stay in Toronto 7 31.82%
Go elsewhere 5 22.73%
Give him more time in Toronto, then maybe trade him 10 45.45%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-03-2010, 12:44 AM   #41 (permalink)
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good players find a way to fit
if you're a one trick pony then its hard, unless youre saying Tuk and Klieza dont have a wide skill set
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:46 AM   #42 (permalink)
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i don't know that we even have an established system yet. and if we do, there's no guarantee that it will be the same next year. we are rebuilding. lk knew that when he signed here, and he signed long term. we can assume that the team is looking for a pg and a c, at least, and that we have several assets, including a pick, a tpe, expiring deals, a bit of cap space and some prospects that might be moved or used in all kinds of ways to find those players. things will change, that is a near certainty. lk has been here for just over a month. perhaps it's a bit soon to be talking about not fitting in. welcome to raptorland guys, but don't expect this to be a team that has defined roles and a deep rooted system yet. things will evolve over more than this one season, and i can't possibly imagine that linas doesn't know exactly what's going on here.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:29 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Ever cross your mind that Turk was not a good match on either Toronto OR the Suns? Is that possible? He was a top 3 player on a Magic that went to the Finals! Have the Raptors ever even been to the finals in franchise history? Obviously Orlando was a great fit and he was amazing there.

Kleiza and his agent made it known to Denver not to match the contract. Yes they could have, but a team is not going to take that risk when he says he doesn't want to be there.

This thread is not titled "Kleiza" should be a starter. Argument is about how he is not a good fit here... regardless of starting. In fact, it was mentioned that Kleiza can be a good role player on a team like the Spurs... obviously he would be coming off the bench. Aside Bargnani, no single Raptor would should be starting on a contending team anyway.

What's so difficult to understand that Kleiza doesn't fit in Toronto's system? Similar analogies: Wall/Arenas don't fit together... The "Big Three" in Miami don't play well together when all are on the floor... Elton Brand did not work out in Philadelphia... etc. Kleiza fit better as a SG on Denver where their was ball movement and they were a playoff contender, then he does as either a PF/SF on Toronto.
how exactly does Kleiza not fit in the Toronto system? i'd love to hear how he doesnt fit... examples would be great... and please dont say that he'd be averaging 16 points if he 'fit' in our system.
is it because he is 'only' averaging 10/4?
what kind of stats were you expecting from him?
you say he fit in the Denver system, yet he put up the exact same stats in the exact same playing time. do you really believe that playing one year in Greece has somehow transformed a mediocre player into a star?
if he was back in Denver this season (a team you say he 'fit' in), do you think he would somehow be averaging more than 10/4?

its great that you mention Denver as a team where theres so much ball movement, when they average 21 assists per game... and Toronto has no ball movement yet we average 20 assists per game.
huge difference there.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:30 AM   #44 (permalink)
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i don't know that we even have an established system yet. and if we do, there's no guarantee that it will be the same next year. we are rebuilding. lk knew that when he signed here, and he signed long term. we can assume that the team is looking for a pg and a c, at least, and that we have several assets, including a pick, a tpe, expiring deals, a bit of cap space and some prospects that might be moved or used in all kinds of ways to find those players. things will change, that is a near certainty. lk has been here for just over a month. perhaps it's a bit soon to be talking about not fitting in. welcome to raptorland guys, but don't expect this to be a team that has defined roles and a deep rooted system yet. things will evolve over more than this one season, and i can't possibly imagine that linas doesn't know exactly what's going on here.
I understand where your coming from and the "rebuilding" process, but I can confidently say that Kleiza didn't expect to be playing the limited minutes he currently is, especially with this kind of roster. It's not about starting... it's minutes and role.

Kleiza was the top guy on a Greek team that would arguably be better then a fourth of NBA teams, including Toronto. The beauty of European basketball is that you don't need one superstar and its a team game. Kleiza was that most efficient guy. Kleiza was also the leader of a national team that finished 3rd in the World Championship and 4th in the past two Olympic games (and 3 bronzes earlier).

I think Kleiza's role should be somewhat more defined, at least enough to be playing over 30 minutes, consistently. If he can't play over 30 minutes on one of the worst teams in the league, then I'm sure he'd rather go on a contender like the Spurs/Magic and play 18 meaningful minutes off the bench where he fits in a system. Highly doubt Kleiza agreed to this limited role even with the rebuilding. His resume is legit and he will eventually voice his frustration. Either traded to a better fit, or return to Europe.

Some problems stem from management/(maybe coaching staff):

- Switching the rotations too frequently.
- Depending on Bargnani's jumpshot. Not giving him any tough love when he play's like dogsh!t.
- Overplaying Reggie (before injury) and Derozan (yea he needs experience, but he's unworthy of averaging 30 minutes, especially playing those minutes with a hamstring injury for a few games).
- Under-utilizing Amir Johnson. Guy is the future and needs half of the attention Derozan is receiving.
- Under-utilizing Barbosa. Paying him over $7,000,000 to come off the bench for a spark? At least give him some minutes before his wrist surgery.
- Not pursuing a defensive center.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:34 AM   #45 (permalink)
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try to look a year or two down the road, not at just his first 5 weeks. if lk wasn't doing that, i don't see why he signed long term on a rebuilding team.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:44 AM   #46 (permalink)
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how exactly does Kleiza not fit in the Toronto system? i'd love to hear how he doesnt fit... examples would be great... and please dont say that he'd be averaging 16 points if he 'fit' in our system.
is it because he is 'only' averaging 10/4?
what kind of stats were you expecting from him?
you say he fit in the Denver system, yet he put up the exact same stats in the exact same playing time. do you really believe that playing one year in Greece has somehow transformed a mediocre player into a star?
if he was back in Denver this season (a team you say he 'fit' in), do you think he would somehow be averaging more than 10/4?

its great that you mention Denver as a team where theres so much ball movement, when they average 21 assists per game... and Toronto has no ball movement yet we average 20 assists per game.
huge difference there.
Toronto has no offensive system and its 1-on-1 basketball. He floats around the perimeter, and unlike in Denver, rarely anyone passes him the ball. Everyone tries to create their own shot. Kleiza scores in Toronto usually when he has to be a playmaker... and he is not a playmaker... not playing to his strength and inefficient use of him.

Averaging 10/4 in Denver when the competed in the playoffs is exponentially more significant then doing that on the Raptors who are one of the league's worst teams.

Are you comparing this year's assists between the Nuggets and Raptors? I'll let you figure out that fallacy.

No one is saying Kleiza is a star. I don't know where your pulling these things from, similarly to the "starter" thing you mentioned. You can reply to my post again, but I'll say it a last time to you at least... Kleiza does not fit in Toronto's system and is being under-utilized. He would be more efficient elsewhere. I wouldn't label Kleiza ever being a mediocre player considering he was playing on a Nuggets team that was a solid playoff contender... he managed to find a strong role as a bench player at the age of 23 and younger... scoring 41 in one game. And yes, he did improve greatly after Greece, being a top performer in the Euroleague and as evidenced in the World Championship leading Lithuania to 3rd place and being on the all-tournament team. If Kleiza goes from a stacked Denver team, improves, and has similar statistics on a Toronto team ranked 28 in the preseason, then yes, he doesn't fit here.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:48 AM   #47 (permalink)
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this has Hedo circa 2009 written all over it.
im not even going to try.
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:04 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Averaging 10/4 in Denver when the competed in the playoffs is exponentially more significant then doing that on the Raptors who are one of the league's worst teams.
the Raptors are currently 8th place in the east... does that make us playoff contenders?

it must be so difficult to have a favorite player, yet hate the team he plays for.
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:06 AM   #49 (permalink)
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the Raptors are currently 8th place in the east... does that make us playoff contenders?
Negative... 6-8 in the East is poop.

Denver challenged the Lakers and was a force. Made it through the first round at least.
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:35 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Inisder, do you really like Kleiza? No need to defend him, but it looks you don't like him.

I said that Kleiza can average 16 points here. In fact i think he is 12 ppg NBA player. But Toronto looks very bad on paper, and I thought Kleiza can go with 16ppg. Even Weems has 14! Now thats just pathetic... And what is more pathetic - Kleiza do look worse than Weems. Thats why I agree with icelander, Kleiza do not fit here and thats why I clicked ''Go elsewhere''. Propably we are impatient, yes.

Ok, Kleiza had 10 points in Denver. You know Carmelo Anthony is in there. Know him? I heard he is good, and he is sf, just like Linas. Denver had more good players and scorers like Smith, Nene, Billups, Martin... It's not the same as todays Raptors. You think DeRozan would have his 11 in there, or Weems his 14ppg there? He would be happy with 5ppg in denver, yeah, I said it...
And what is really funny, Kleiza was mainly a SG there :facepalm: pathetic... SF-PF played in SG, but still had his 10ppg in a very good team on paper.

And what is so wrong with Turk? He already proved he can be great. He was key player on NBA finalist team. He sign big contract and lost his interest. He's just got what he wanted - $. He is not work-ethic. Kleiza is not like him, hope he is not, never looked that way.
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:20 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Kleiza is what he is. He's an undersized 4. He's a tweener. He's a nice player off the bench. That's his ceiling. Sorry to break anyone's heart, but that's what he is. Yes, he was a good player in Greece last year, but that's because his game is made for the Euroleague.

Everyone is clamouring, saying, 'but why do Weems and DeRozan etc" get a shot....why? Because they're seen to have a future in the NBA and need to still develop. I'd argue we know what Kleiza is. We don't need to feed him minutes as he's essentially reached his peak in development. However, Weems and DeRozan have not. They're ceilings are higher than Kleiza's. While you may disagree, that's the thinking and I'd guarantee you that almost every team in the league would follow the same pattern (i.e. develop talent over playing mediocre developed talent).

By blaming it on the system is ridiculous. Would he fit the triangle? No. Would he fit Sloan's system? No, because it's all dependent upon pick and rolls and outside jumping shooting from the 3 and even 4. That's what Kleiza is doing now as well. He'd MAYBE fit a Princeton offence. MAYBE.

Kleiza is what he is. He's a 7th-8th man in the NBA. His tendency to get the ball, put his head down and drive or shoot is something that bothers me. He's an average offensive player. He's not quick, doesn't have an explosive first step but will have that game where his shot is clicking and he'll be able then to drive as the defender plays up on him. He reminds me alot of Delfino when he was here.

As for Turk. Please don't look at the numbers. He was a cancer here last year. Even some Turkish fans turned on him and how poorly he played. He had a horrible attitude.

And to mb666, Barbosa starting? Really? Who cares that he makes 7 million. He's a guy that's excelled off the bench his entire career. It's important that he stays there as he gives this team something off the bench.

Also, to think he'd excel with the Knicks is funny. Who's he going to replace? Chandler? Fields? Amare? Galo? C'mon....be realistic.

Further, Kleiza, played poorly against the US for a freaking reason.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:18 AM   #52 (permalink)
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USA has the biggest refs protection in basketball world and Everyone knows it. I mean super big, inconceivable protection. No fouls, and what to say about the traveling? That rule disappears when USA play the game. Every single player saying that you must deal with it. Some young players are pissed, Voroncevic showed his full bloody arms after the game against USA. And what? Nothing. Nobody cares.
Refs need to make a decisions quickly, and most of that decisions are not quiet sure. As one Lithuanian Player said - imagine unknown ref from Puerto Rico or somewhere else, how can he give a questionable whistle on Durant or Rose or Kobe...? Course, no one talks about corrupt FIBA. We saw how corrupt it is, just look at Serbia-Turkey game, and the final - USA against Local heroes, 12 giants Turks :facepalm: Some players even wears hand protection sleeves just against the USA. Nothing else to said. Yes, thats a freaking reason.
Or you think only USA players can defend? Linas played well against Spain, against France. He trashed Batum. Show me other Raptor who can trash Batum.

You see, we not saying he must play more or smth. He looks terrible.
How good you know Kleiza? I know him very well, and he is more than just a 8th, player on the NBA team. I mean he play his worst game in the last 4 years. He still averaging 10/4 but we are pissed, he looks very bad now.
Maybe it looks stupid to blame system. Maybe it's Linas faul, but we saying he is not even a half of the player who can be.
We not saying any bad things, we talking about Raptors player, we talking positively
Scola, 20/9 player was a leading Argentina scorer, PF. Linas was a leading Lithuania scorer, PF this year. Not saying he is better than Scola, but he is not so terrible he is now. Look at this game, Argentina-Lithuania, FIBA WC 2010 Quarterfinals.

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Old 12-03-2010, 10:30 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Bloody arms?

Were they playing defense with a machete, because a ref would definitely have to call that.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:39 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Kleiza is what he is. He's an undersized 4. He's a tweener. He's a nice player off the bench.

We don't need to feed him minutes as he's essentially reached his peak in development. However, Weems and DeRozan have not. They're ceilings are higher than Kleiza's. While you may disagree, that's the thinking and I'd guarantee you that almost every team in the league would follow the same pattern (i.e. develop talent over playing mediocre developed talent).

Kleiza, played poorly against the US for a freaking reason.
Yes he is a nice player off the bench and would fit on a contender. Kleiza plays efficiently allowing the game come to him. In Toronto there's no playmaker setting him up and he has to create his own offense, which he doesn't do well. I'd argue that Kleiza is a big weapon coming off the bench playing against other backups as he usually can use his size and take advantage of them in the post and shoot 3s. Yea he can play as a starter in Toronto but what's the point?

Derozan is 21 so the "sky's the limit" slogan can be applied to him. Realistically though, idk how good he can become. Def won't jump on the McGrady bandwagon and I think Derozan would be satisfied as a role player off the bench... like Kleiza in Denver. I think if Derozan becomes as good as JR Smith then that's an accomplishment. About Weems, I disagree. He's only a year younger than Kleiza and I don't see him getting any better... not a knock on him considering he's playing well. Toronto suits to his strength because he can hold the ball and create plays, usually driving to the basket. On other teams, I don't see him having the freedom to hog the ball as he frequently does year, even if he scores.

Again, I don't want to argue too much with a subjective term of what mediocre means. As I already noted, Kleiza was in the rotation of a contending Nuggets team as a 23 year old and younger, he scored 41 points in a game, was a top 5 player in Europe last season, led Lithuania to 3rd place in the World and made all-tournament team. It is what it is.

Kleiza played poorly against the US. Thanks for pointing out one, and by far his worst game, of the tournament. Reality was that he was defended by Igoudala and he was receiving double and triple teams from NBA all-stars. This was one of Lithuanians least talented teams and he was he still lead them to a bronze. I'm sure you could put Kobe on Lithuania and he wouldn't look as good as usual being triple-teamed by those guys.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:57 AM   #55 (permalink)
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you need to stop bringing up his 41 point game like it was just another day at the office. Stop living in the past.
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:01 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Bloody arms?

Were they playing defense with a machete, because a ref would definitely have to call that.
Yes, bloody arms, I saw that video interview. Not that bloody it drips, but it was full of bloody marks, like it would be whipped, and the skin was pink. He was really mad, it was his first game against team USA. He said that he knew about that ref thing but not imagined it is bad.
USA players use their quickness. I don't know how to say, my english is poor, but it looks they whipping with their hands very quickly and try to tip the ball from opponent hands. Funny is, that if it would be any other player, he would get foul, even if he would make it correctly (just because it looks like a foul).
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:01 AM   #57 (permalink)
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USA has the biggest refs protection in basketball world and Everyone knows it. I mean super big, inconceivable protection. No fouls, and what to say about the traveling? That rule disappears when USA play the game. Every single player saying that you must deal with it. Some young players are pissed, Voroncevic showed his full bloody arms after the game against USA. And what? Nothing. Nobody cares.
Refs need to make a decisions quickly, and most of that decisions are not quiet sure. As one Lithuanian Player said - imagine unknown ref from Puerto Rico or somewhere else, how can he give a questionable whistle on Durant or Rose or Kobe...? Course, no one talks about corrupt FIBA. We saw how corrupt it is, just look at Serbia-Turkey game, and the final - USA against Local heroes, 12 giants Turks :facepalm: Some players even wears hand protection sleeves just against the USA. Nothing else to said. Yes, thats a freaking reason.
Or you think only USA players can defend? Linas played well against Spain, against France. He trashed Batum. Show me other Raptor who can trash Batum.

You see, we not saying he must play more or smth. He looks terrible.
How good you know Kleiza? I know him very well, and he is more than just a 8th, player on the NBA team. I mean he play his worst game in the last 4 years. He still averaging 10/4 but we are pissed, he looks very bad now.
Maybe it looks stupid to blame system. Maybe it's Linas faul, but we saying he is not even a half of the player who can be.
We not saying any bad things, we talking about Raptors player, we talking positively
Scola, 20/9 player was a leading Argentina scorer, PF. Linas was a leading Lithuania scorer, PF this year. Not saying he is better than Scola, but he is not so terrible he is now. Look at this game, Argentina-Lithuania, FIBA WC 2010 Quarterfinals.

YouTube - Lithuania - Argentina Highlights (FIBA World Championship 2010 Turkey)
I like Kleiza, I think he could contribute more than he is doing now but please dont compare him to Scola man. Scola is a very special player. Both in Europe and the NBA.
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:26 AM   #58 (permalink)
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I like Kleiza, I think he could contribute more than he is doing now but please dont compare him to Scola man. Scola is a very special player. Both in Europe and the NBA.
yes, I completely agree. Scola is great, he is 20ppg player and what is funny, he is not even a NBA style player. I mean he is 6'9 (even a little undersized), non athletic or very strong, but he is 20ppg guy, thats insane. Kleiza will never be good as Scola.
But it is a few similar things. Scola was great in former Tau Ceramica, Linas was great in Olympiakos. Both teams was good.
And they both was a leaders in FIBA 2010, A leaders on a good teams, not like Penny in New Zealand :facepalm:
And Scola was not great on his first NBA season.
It's not a first NBA season to Kleiza, but that year in Europe confused him a little bit.

Maybe we are very impatient. Just take a look at Tiago Splitter stats. Yes, he was injured, but he already played in 14 games, but averaging only 5 points in 12 minutes. The same with Pekovic, I don't think he is very good but he is better than 4/2 player... I remember it was a thread about Barg and Bellineli playing in Eurobasket qualifying and it was a video how Pekovic dominates over Barg. And his team Montenegro looked much better than Italy.
Need so time to adapt, re-adapt to Linas.
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:36 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Scola is not athletic but he can shoot well, pass, rebound and play smart
Duncan isn't a big time athlete either, he just knows how to play the game
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:45 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Well yes... And he proved than non athletic bigs can be good in the NBA. But it's still hard to him to play in the NBA where is a lot s of freaks of nature. He is European style player, but he is so good, he can average 20 points in the NBA too.
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