Kleiza needs to leave Toronto.

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 08:58 PM

Hype? He had very good year in Greece. It looked he improved a lot. When he was a Nugget, he also was a bench guy on Lithuania national team. After that great year in Pireas he became a leader of LIETUVA nt too.
Secondly, Raptors has no superstar who play in the same position as him. Overall, it's not very strong team. It was some hopes he will be leading scorer or at least 16ppg guy here, in Toronto. You know, Kleiza looked maybe even better in much stronger national team than Bargnani this summer.

mb666 · 12-02-2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad

I actually think Linas is doing pretty well here given the circumstances. Like i am curious why you think he is dissapointing or he isn't enjoying himself. He's still a big part of the rotation and he's still scoring decently enough. Sure he has some off nights, but he's not Kobe Bryant. You guys know he's not as good as Kobe Bryant, right? just checking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER

im kinda wondering the same thing...
he's averaging 10/4 here... he averaged even less his last year in Denver, and is playing the most minutes he has ever averaged in his entire NBA career.
so why again is he unhappy? and why again are you all clamoring to have him traded?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeafFanB

Through an injury and at times inconsistent minutes he's not doing that bad imo.

Kleiza is a much improved player since his Denver days. All he did on the Nuggets was shoot 3s. After Europe he has a more all around game... well at least he added play making in the post (something he did well in college too).

It's possible that some of you guys can only judge Kleiza on his Denver days. Unsure how many games you saw him play in Greece, or even in the World Championship. Maybe you guys saw the Lithuania/US game, and if so, that's unfortunate because that was by far his worst game.

Kleiza was a beast in Greece playing against Europe's highest competition. As already mentioned, I really think that the top two Greece teams would beat the Raptors. Us Lithuanians take basketball religiously and we can all confidently say that Kleiza is not currently playing to his potential and ability.

Maybe the European game is different, and Kleiza is better suited in that style of play. Like Anthony Parker, who was also very good overseas, isn't doing much in the NBA. But I think Parker came to the NBA too old... was over 30. Kleiza is just 25and I think he is a European that can actually play well in the NBA. He is currently playing worst then on the Nuggets and he has improved, so something is wrong. I think the Raptors are just not a team for him. He needs a play-maker and Toronto has none. There's no offensive system in Toronto other then guys playing 1-on-1... it's not the system for him.

Kleiza has far more potential than averaging 10/4. Get him on a team where the offense flows and the ball moves, and he would be far more effective.

**'trane** · 12-02-2010, 09:06 PM

if kleiza was showing that he's head and shoulders better than other guys, he'd be getting more minutes. he's not, so he isn't.

his role suits him. i can't think of too many teams that would be better with him as a starter on their team.

**INSIDER** · 12-02-2010, 09:22 PM

The funny thing is that turkoglu fans were saying the exact same thing last year.... Hows he doing this year in Phoenix Playing with one of the best PGs in the game?
Oh right.

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 09:26 PM

Course Euro and NBA basketball is different. Just look. Sani Becirovic was a star and offensive leader, no doubt the best scorer, while Brandon Jennings was a bench. But Sani can't be as good in NBA as Jennings is.
Anthony Parker failed, but just a little. he joined Raptors a bit too old, but he was good.now he is 35, but he still starting. When he was 28, wow, he and Saras was so amazing.

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER

The funny thing is that turkoglu fans were saying the exact same thing last year.... Hows he doing this year in Phoenix Playing with one of the best PGs in the game?
Oh right.

Well, I was afraid that Kleiza can fail as Turkoglu did here. I actually think Turkoglu is a better player. Turkoglu could be a leader of Lithuania, but not Weems or DeRozan.

**'trane** · 12-02-2010, 09:36 PM

kleizoglu?

**INSIDER** · 12-02-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane

kleizoglu?

ha, maybe he should go to Phoenix too. that way he will get to play with a playmaker.
unfortunately, he wouldnt start on that team either. in fact, he would be lucky to get more than 10 minutes a game there. he should be thanking his lucky stars he gets 25 minutes here.

mb666 · 12-02-2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane

if kleiza was showing that he's head and shoulders better than other guys, he'd be getting more minutes. he's not, so he isn't.

his role suits him. i can't think of too many teams that would be better with him as a starter on their team.

I agree... He shouldn't be starting. But put him on a Spurs, Hornets, Thunder and he would be a great catalyst off the bench. Averaging 10/4 on a contender is far better than doing it on a team that is one of the worst teams in the league.

Like I said earlier, Kleiza needs to be on a team where the ball moves. The Raptors are a stagnant team. Play calling is essentially limited to guys going 1-on-1. This system fits certain guys (like Weems, who IMO would be irrelevant on a contender bc he needs the ball in his hands). Roles are key in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER

The funny thing is that turkoglu fans were saying the exact same thing last year.... Hows he doing this year in Phoenix Playing with one of the best PGs in the game?
Oh right.

What's wrong with Turk? He averaged 11 pts, 4 assists and 5 rbs as a Raptor? During the 07-08 season he averaged 19 pts, 6 rbs, 5 assts and in 08-09 it was 17 pts, 5 rbs, 5 assts. Instead of you guys bashing Hedo, maybe it's possible he didn't fit into Triano's system. His numbers here were decent. But they still got significantly worse... did he become less talented overnight? Could be the system. In Phoenix his numbers are similar to Toronto with less minutes... plus you have a guy in Hakim Warrick that is breaking out. Hedo may be not worth the contract he received but he is a good player. It's suspicious how Bosh and Hedo criticized management and everyone hates the players.

In all reality, the only Raptor that is currently better than Hedo is Bargnani. So it is what it is.

Unlike Kleiza, Hedo is a playmaker. He played point-forward on Orlando. The Steve Nash analogy is irrelevant in this scenario because Hedo doesn't need to be set-up.

It's good that guys, whether Italians, Turks or Lithuanians, can comment about players they better understand than some of you considering you've probably been more focused on the Raptors instead of particular players. So maybe the complaints about Toronto, whether in terms of Turk, Belinelli, Kleiza are warranted. I mean there's no offensive system on this team. It's run and gun basketball = aka lets hope ESPN ranks us in the top 20 in the league. We shoot 70% from the field and blow out the Wizards... hooray! Big accomplishment. We beat Boston! Of course after playing a great team x amount of teams every year you will eventually beat them once.

It's getting pointless to argue this. Kleiza can be more productive elsewhere where there is an offensive where the ball moves. On the other hand, guys that are playmakers (need the ball) but possibly mediocre on other teams with offensive system (Weems in Denver) may be good in Toronto.

**'trane** · 12-02-2010, 09:54 PM

you shoulda been here a year ago.

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER

ha, maybe he should go to Phoenix too. that way he will get to play with a playmaker.
unfortunately, he wouldnt start on that team either. in fact, he would be lucky to get more than 10 minutes a game there. he should be thanking his lucky stars he gets 25 minutes here.

Phoenix is full. Half of Suns players are SF. Nevertheless, Josh Childress, who was just a sidekick to Linas in Greece (and it was Linas first pro year in Europe) gets 18 minutes there.

**INSIDER** · 12-02-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mb666

I agree... He shouldn't be starting. But put him on a Spurs, Hornets, Thunder and he would be a great catalyst off the bench. Averaging 10/4 on a contender is far better than doing it on a team that is one of the worst teams in the league.

Like I said earlier, Kleiza needs to be on a team where the ball moves. The Raptors are a stagnant team. Play calling is essentially limited to guys going 1-on-1. This system fits certain guys (like Weems, who IMO would be irrelevant on a contender bc he needs the ball in his hands). Roles are key in the NBA

What's wrong with Turk? He averaged 11 pts, 4 assists and 5 rbs as a Raptor? During the 07-08 season he averaged 19 pts, 6 rbs, 5 assts and in 08-09 it was 17 pts, 5 rbs, 5 assts. Instead of you guys bashing Hedo, maybe it's possible he didn't fit into Triano's system. His numbers here were decent. But they still got significantly worse... did he become less talented overnight? Could be the system. In Phoenix his numbers are similar to Toronto with less minutes... plus you have a guy in Hakim Warrick that is breaking out. Hedo may be not worth the contract he received but he is a good player. It's suspicious how Bosh and Hedo criticized management and everyone hates the players.

In all reality, the only Raptor that is currently better than Hedo is Bargnani. So it is what it is.

Unlike Kleiza, Hedo is a playmaker. He played point-forward on Orlando. The Steve Nash analogy is irrelevant in this scenario because Hedo doesn't need to be set-up.

It's good that guys, whether Italians, Turks or Lithuanians, can comment about players they better understand than some of you considering you've probably been more focused on the Raptors instead of particular players. So maybe the complaints about Toronto, whether in terms of Turk, Belinelli, Kleiza are warranted. I mean there's no offensive system on this team. It's run and gun basketball = aka lets hope ESPN ranks us in the top 20 in the league. We shoot 70% from the field and blow out the Wizards... hooray! Big accomplishment. We beat Boston! Of course after playing a great team x amount of teams every year you will eventually beat them once.

It's getting pointless to argue this. Kleiza can be more productive elsewhere where there is an offensive where the ball moves. On the other hand, guys that are playmakers (need the ball) but possibly mediocre on other teams with offensive system (Weems in Denver) may be good in Toronto.

the turk reference was brought up because his fans would bombard this board with the same comments you are making... "he would do so much better on another team", "he isnt being used to his potential", "he needs to play with better players", blah, blah blah.
they were the first ones to comment on his stats and say that the 11/5/4 wasnt good enough and that he could do so much more.
1 year later, they get their wish and he ends up on a 'better team'... now he's been moved to the bench. what a coincidence. i wonder what those fans are saying now. maybe Phoenix isnt a good enough team for him either...

You guys seem to know first hand how good Kleiza is.
its just a surprise to me that if he's such a superstar, why Denver didnt match the offer we put out, and why on earth did no other team show more interest to sign him than the raptors?
but since he is such a talented player, i'd love to know your personal opinion on what other team in the league would he start on, and what other team in the league would he get more than 25 minutes a night?

jeffb · 12-02-2010, 10:10 PM

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 10:24 PM

Ok, it looks like pointless discussion. We Lithuanians trying to defend him, maybe we are biased but we know him better.
It's true it's all about the system. As I said, he is not superstar, he can't play well in any system. Look, now Derozan averaging 30 minutes! Damn, if he would be in elite EL team, for example Barcelona. I imagine how bad he would be in that system, how fans would laugh at him, how far away from the NBA he would look.
It's just a imaginary example but it's a lot of facts. I remember Chuck Eidson. His first year he played in "Lietuvos Rytas" (Lithuanian team), he looked very bad, he was just after injure too. Fans was furious, he was terrible. But then team hired new coach, and next season, Chuck Eidson was amazing, was a leading scorer, reabounder, assister, stealer and bloker on the team! The guy became a legend there, probably the best ''Rytas'' foreigner of all times.
And the same this year. Old ''Rytas'' coach showed no love to Lithuanian super talent Jonas Valanciunas. He is only 18, he is skinny, he is not ready. But the team hired new coach and Jonas already a starter.

I saying, it's about the system, coaches. And the guy showed interest, he wanted to play here! He is still a Raptor, why show hate or smth. with these Kleizoglu jokes...
And i think, Kleiza is the guy, who needs to know his role. He must to now his minutes. After the trade, he plays 25 minutes in one game, then 7 minutes in the other. I think it doesn't help to him.

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER

You guys seem to know first hand how good Kleiza is.
its just a surprise to me that if he's such a superstar, why Denver didnt match the offer we put out, and why on earth did no other team show more interest to sign him than the raptors?
but since he is such a talented player, i'd love to know your personal opinion on what other team in the league would he start on, and what other team in the league would he get more than 25 minutes a night?

No one saying he is superstar. But Toronto Raptors has no superstars, has no stars, all-stars. And he is not worse than Weems or Demarr, I think he is better. And because i think he is better than Weems, doesn't mean I think he is superstar. Weems and Demarr are far away from superstars you know.

And about the other teams and that 25 minutes. Well, as I said, it's about the system, I can't guarantee he would be a starter but I will name the teams with worse SFs IMO : Cavaliers, Clippers, Atlanta, Kings. Questionable : Warriors, Nets, Minnesota.

Windex · 12-02-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeafFanB

,

i agree

MARTYNAS · 12-02-2010, 11:02 PM

Triple post. I am a real chucking spamming machine, im sorry.

If we talking about Kleiza as a player who can play as s PF. Lets back to INSIDERS post about the Suns. Suns tried to play with Turkoglu as a PF. I always thought Turk is SF-SG, and even can play as PG if it needs desperately. Kleiza is SF-PF and i think he would fit better than turk.
And I thought about the Magic. Magic runs Princeton offense. It needs fast PF who can shoot. They even tried Ryan Anderson as a starter. Magic has a lot of talent, Pietrus, Lewis, Carter, Richardson, so it's the best for them to play Lewis as a PF. But imagine, we move Lewis at his natural SF position and put Linas Kleiza at PF, guy who can't shoot, is fast as a PF, tougher than Lewis, has weaknesses at defense, rebounding (he is not terrible rebounder in fact) but he is next to Howard so it's tolerable. IS it impossible? Would not happen I think, but it's possible. Possible to him to be a starter even on a contender team.

Windex · 12-02-2010, 11:03 PM

[quote=MARTYNAS;471092]Ok, it looks like pointless discussion. We Lithuanians trying to defend him, maybe we are biased but we know him better.
QUOTE]

no need to defend
no one here is bashing him like the Turk days

**INSIDER** · 12-02-2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex

no need to defend
no one here is bashing him like the Turk days

thats true.
I actually like Kleiza.

mb666 · 12-02-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER

the turk reference was brought up because his fans would bombard this board with the same comments you are making...

Denver didnt match the offer we put out, and why on earth did no other team show more interest to sign him than the raptors?

but since he is such a talented player, i'd love to know your personal opinion on what other team in the league would he start on, and what other team in the league would he get more than 25 minutes a night?

Ever cross your mind that Turk was not a good match on either Toronto OR the Suns? Is that possible? He was a top 3 player on a Magic that went to the Finals! Have the Raptors ever even been to the finals in franchise history? Obviously Orlando was a great fit and he was amazing there.

Kleiza and his agent made it known to Denver not to match the contract. Yes they could have, but a team is not going to take that risk when he says he doesn't want to be there.

This thread is not titled "Kleiza" should be a starter. Argument is about how he is not a good fit here... regardless of starting. In fact, it was mentioned that Kleiza can be a good role player on a team like the Spurs... obviously he would be coming off the bench. Aside Bargnani, no single Raptor would should be starting on a contending team anyway.

What's so difficult to understand that Kleiza doesn't fit in Toronto's system? Similar analogies: Wall/Arenas don't fit together... The "Big Three" in Miami don't play well together when all are on the floor... Elton Brand did not work out in Philadelphia... etc. Kleiza fit better as a SG on Denver where their was ball movement and they were a playoff contender, then he does as either a PF/SF on Toronto.

View Poll Results: Where should Kleiza be?
Stay in Toronto	7	31.82%
Go elsewhere	5	22.73%
Give him more time in Toronto, then maybe trade him	10	45.45%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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12-02-2010, 08:58 PM	#21 (permalink)
MARTYNAS some creepy guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: far far away Posts: 1,441 Representing:	Hype? He had very good year in Greece. It looked he improved a lot. When he was a Nugget, he also was a bench guy on Lithuania national team. After that great year in Pireas he became a leader of LIETUVA nt too. Secondly, Raptors has no superstar who play in the same position as him. Overall, it's not very strong team. It was some hopes he will be leading scorer or at least 16ppg guy here, in Toronto. You know, Kleiza looked maybe even better in much stronger national team than Bargnani this summer.

12-02-2010, 09:06 PM	#23 (permalink)
'trane www.torontoraptorsforum.com giant steps Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15,190 Representing:	if kleiza was showing that he's head and shoulders better than other guys, he'd be getting more minutes. he's not, so he isn't. his role suits him. i can't think of too many teams that would be better with him as a starter on their team.

12-02-2010, 09:22 PM	#24 (permalink)
INSIDER BOOBS never too old. Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: richmond hill Posts: 10,804 Representing:	The funny thing is that turkoglu fans were saying the exact same thing last year.... Hows he doing this year in Phoenix Playing with one of the best PGs in the game? Oh right.

12-02-2010, 09:26 PM	#25 (permalink)
MARTYNAS some creepy guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: far far away Posts: 1,441 Representing:	Course Euro and NBA basketball is different. Just look. Sani Becirovic was a star and offensive leader, no doubt the best scorer, while Brandon Jennings was a bench. But Sani can't be as good in NBA as Jennings is. Anthony Parker failed, but just a little. he joined Raptors a bit too old, but he was good.now he is 35, but he still starting. When he was 28, wow, he and Saras was so amazing.

12-02-2010, 09:36 PM	#27 (permalink)
'trane www.torontoraptorsforum.com giant steps Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15,190 Representing:	kleizoglu?

12-02-2010, 09:54 PM	#30 (permalink)
'trane www.torontoraptorsforum.com giant steps Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15,190 Representing:	you shoulda been here a year ago.

12-02-2010, 10:10 PM	#33 (permalink)
jeffb is the baby faced assassin Banned Join Date: May 2008 Location: YO MAMMA Posts: 81,104 Representing:	,

12-02-2010, 10:24 PM	#34 (permalink)
MARTYNAS some creepy guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: far far away Posts: 1,441 Representing:	Ok, it looks like pointless discussion. We Lithuanians trying to defend him, maybe we are biased but we know him better. It's true it's all about the system. As I said, he is not superstar, he can't play well in any system. Look, now Derozan averaging 30 minutes! Damn, if he would be in elite EL team, for example Barcelona. I imagine how bad he would be in that system, how fans would laugh at him, how far away from the NBA he would look. It's just a imaginary example but it's a lot of facts. I remember Chuck Eidson. His first year he played in "Lietuvos Rytas" (Lithuanian team), he looked very bad, he was just after injure too. Fans was furious, he was terrible. But then team hired new coach, and next season, Chuck Eidson was amazing, was a leading scorer, reabounder, assister, stealer and bloker on the team! The guy became a legend there, probably the best ''Rytas'' foreigner of all times. And the same this year. Old ''Rytas'' coach showed no love to Lithuanian super talent Jonas Valanciunas. He is only 18, he is skinny, he is not ready. But the team hired new coach and Jonas already a starter. I saying, it's about the system, coaches. And the guy showed interest, he wanted to play here! He is still a Raptor, why show hate or smth. with these Kleizoglu jokes... And i think, Kleiza is the guy, who needs to know his role. He must to now his minutes. After the trade, he plays 25 minutes in one game, then 7 minutes in the other. I think it doesn't help to him.

12-02-2010, 11:02 PM	#37 (permalink)
MARTYNAS some creepy guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: far far away Posts: 1,441 Representing:	Triple post. I am a real chucking spamming machine, im sorry. If we talking about Kleiza as a player who can play as s PF. Lets back to INSIDERS post about the Suns. Suns tried to play with Turkoglu as a PF. I always thought Turk is SF-SG, and even can play as PG if it needs desperately. Kleiza is SF-PF and i think he would fit better than turk. And I thought about the Magic. Magic runs Princeton offense. It needs fast PF who can shoot. They even tried Ryan Anderson as a starter. Magic has a lot of talent, Pietrus, Lewis, Carter, Richardson, so it's the best for them to play Lewis as a PF. But imagine, we move Lewis at his natural SF position and put Linas Kleiza at PF, guy who can't shoot, is fast as a PF, tougher than Lewis, has weaknesses at defense, rebounding (he is not terrible rebounder in fact) but he is next to Howard so it's tolerable. IS it impossible? Would not happen I think, but it's possible. Possible to him to be a starter even on a contender team.

12-02-2010, 11:03 PM	#38 (permalink)
Windex the next dictator of MLSE fresh and clean Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: uʍop ɹǝpun Posts: 22,591 Representing:	[quote=MARTYNAS;471092]Ok, it looks like pointless discussion. We Lithuanians trying to defend him, maybe we are biased but we know him better. QUOTE] no need to defend no one here is bashing him like the Turk days