World Soccer Thread - Page 442
Old 09-17-2013, 08:31 PM   #8821 (permalink)
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Wish I didn't have class but wow, just wow.
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:04 PM   #8822 (permalink)
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Well, well, chelsea lost at home to basel! Not making any sweeping statements, chelsea could still have a strong season and mourinho is a good manager, but I think football has moved on from defensive tactics being able to make you the best. His teams at porto, chelsea and inter were built to be solid and take advantage of teams on the break, football has evolved to be more about creativity in the last few years. Not sure how adaptable mourinho is. The front 3 should not be asked to do defensive duties. Yes they need to close down and pressure the ball but not track back. You don't see ronaldo, messi, robben, reus being asked to chase back into their own half.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:45 PM   #8823 (permalink)
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Chelsea should've kept Lukaku and not bought Eto'o. Chelsea also didn't really need Willian either. I'm also really hoping Mata has had a slight injury or something and this isn't a Mou preference. CDM has to be addressed. You can't have Lamps play 90 mpg night in night out anymore. Ginkel isn't a pure CDM. Mikel isn't trusted enough to play full games. I think that if they can they should play Luiz at CDM. Then partner Cahill with Terry or Ivanovic. When Ivanovic plays CB play Azpi.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:17 AM   #8824 (permalink)
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Napoi really impressed me yesterday, expecially due to the huge effort spent in any pressing. I didn't expect Rafa put all these new players together in such a way. And Insigne, damn if I only think about when he played in Pescara (I also met him around the city a couple of times) with Verratti, Immobile and Sansovini. What a quartet they were...


And, man, how about Milan's undeserving victory? Daaamn. Ok, if you score then it's not undeserved, but I'd like to focus on how the more time passes the lower Milan's level is becoming.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:39 AM   #8825 (permalink)
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Chelsea should've kept Lukaku and not bought Eto'o. Chelsea also didn't really need Willian either. I'm also really hoping Mata has had a slight injury or something and this isn't a Mou preference. CDM has to be addressed. You can't have Lamps play 90 mpg night in night out anymore. Ginkel isn't a pure CDM. Mikel isn't trusted enough to play full games. I think that if they can they should play Luiz at CDM. Then partner Cahill with Terry or Ivanovic. When Ivanovic plays CB play Azpi.
Agree with a lot of what you say but it's about a lot more than personnel, it's a systemic thing. Mourinho's gotta think about changing his tactics, and I think that could be hard for him. The front 3 and 1 of the mids have gotta be allowed to break out of their set positions and also given less defensive duties.

Mourinho will probably prove me wrong and chelsea will become a solid, 1-0 machine, but even if they do I think they'll struggle to win things. Best case scenario imo 2nd or 3rd in prem and quarters or semis in CL.
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:20 PM   #8826 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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Tottenham, aside from the arsenal game, have not conceded a single goal in Europa and bpl matches

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Old 09-19-2013, 11:34 PM   #8827 (permalink)
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thanks for letting us know pzabs.
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:37 AM   #8828 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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thanks for letting us know pzabs.
My sincerest pleasure

All I'm saying is it's an interesting fact
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Old 09-21-2013, 04:34 AM   #8829 (permalink)
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Here's mourinho's response to me!

Josť Mourinho tells Juan Mata to adapt after blasting Chelsea's style | Football | The Guardian

And I don't like his response! Basically mourinho's formation is a genuine 4-5-1 not the more modern, current fashion of 4-2-3-1. Obviously the attacking 3 need to do some closing down but saying to them that they can't roam from their position is very backward thinking imo.
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Old 09-21-2013, 12:43 PM   #8830 (permalink)
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Here's mourinho's response to me!

Josť Mourinho tells Juan Mata to adapt after blasting Chelsea's style | Football | The Guardian

And I don't like his response! Basically mourinho's formation is a genuine 4-5-1 not the more modern, current fashion of 4-2-3-1. Obviously the attacking 3 need to do some closing down but saying to them that they can't roam from their position is very backward thinking imo.
He doesn't dislike 4-2-3-1. That was the dynamite (and arguably still is) formation at Real. An issue is he's taken a dip in quality . CR7, Ozil, Angel >>> Hazard, Mata, Oscar. Ozil was a god playmaker and CR7 a god goalscorer. Then Angel was the work-rate/defensive beast to that attacking trio. Having two CAMs play at the same time has it's drawbacks - especially defensively. However even in said situation Mata>Oscar without a doubt. The other issue is CM/CDM. Lampard is overused. Lampard and Ramires just isn't viable defensively. Either Luiz has to be employed there or even Mikel.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:12 PM   #8831 (permalink)
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He doesn't dislike 4-2-3-1. That was the dynamite (and arguably still is) formation at Real. An issue is he's taken a dip in quality . CR7, Ozil, Angel >>> Hazard, Mata, Oscar. Ozil was a god playmaker and CR7 a god goalscorer. Then Angel was the work-rate/defensive beast to that attacking trio. Having two CAMs play at the same time has it's drawbacks - especially defensively. However even in said situation Mata>Oscar without a doubt. The other issue is CM/CDM. Lampard is overused. Lampard and Ramires just isn't viable defensively. Either Luiz has to be employed there or even Mikel.
They Need a Sandro, paulinho, dembele, or capoue in their midfield
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:34 AM   #8832 (permalink)
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He doesn't dislike 4-2-3-1. That was the dynamite (and arguably still is) formation at Real. An issue is he's taken a dip in quality . CR7, Ozil, Angel >>> Hazard, Mata, Oscar. Ozil was a god playmaker and CR7 a god goalscorer. Then Angel was the work-rate/defensive beast to that attacking trio. Having two CAMs play at the same time has it's drawbacks - especially defensively. However even in said situation Mata>Oscar without a doubt. The other issue is CM/CDM. Lampard is overused. Lampard and Ramires just isn't viable defensively. Either Luiz has to be employed there or even Mikel.
sorry mate, no.

hazard, mata, oscar is one of the best trios in europe, and certainly good enough to mount a serious assault on winning the premiership, (which as i've said a few times, could still happen, i had them as my favourites at the start of the season.)

there is very little difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-5-1, it's pretty much just what you do with the two wide players from the 3. Imo, if you are asking them to drop deeper, and giving them defensive duties, they are joining the 2 from midfield, not operating as attackers.

of course, there are different ways of operating a 4-5-1, i'm not accusing them of being pulis' stoke team!

and again, i'm a bit sick of the modern emphasis on individuals. not only are the 3 players you mentioned top, top players, but it's the tactics and the team identity that allows good players to shine. Yes, having great players is important, and their collective strength is important to success, but a good collection of players with great tactics and togetherness can massively over-achieve, and a world-class collective of players certainly can, often, under-achieve.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #8833 (permalink)
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sorry mate, no.

hazard, mata, oscar is one of the best trios in europe, and certainly good enough to mount a serious assault on winning the premiership, (which as i've said a few times, could still happen, i had them as my favourites at the start of the season.)

there is very little difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-5-1, it's pretty much just what you do with the two wide players from the 3. Imo, if you are asking them to drop deeper, and giving them defensive duties, they are joining the 2 from midfield, not operating as attackers.

of course, there are different ways of operating a 4-5-1, i'm not accusing them of being pulis' stoke team!

and again, i'm a bit sick of the modern emphasis on individuals. not only are the 3 players you mentioned top, top players, but it's the tactics and the team identity that allows good players to shine. Yes, having great players is important, and their collective strength is important to success, but a good collection of players with great tactics and togetherness can massively over-achieve, and a world-class collective of players certainly can, often, under-achieve.
Man City anyone? Yes, they won the premiership one year, but absolutely crashed out of the Champions League in quite a pathetic fashion two years in a row.

Without top rate players, and a quality, inventive coach, a team will be very lucky to go far domestically or in Europe. But, I absolutely agree that tactics, and a collective team identity play a huge role in this. Madrid crashed out of the semi's to Bayern in 2012, BVB in 2013, and an argument could be made that they have superior players to both clubs. They did not however appear to possess the chemistry amongst their players, and it showed.

I'm very interested to see how the whole Bale situation plays out. Because his addition plays into the idea of buying the best, and not building a squad. Ozil is one of those glue guys, provided a lot of assists to his Madrid teammates. I think RM have the depth to deal with his loss, but they don't have anyone who can fit into his role. Obviously they didn't need him vs Gala, but their league performances seem to have suffered so far.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:21 AM   #8834 (permalink)
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Napoi really impressed me yesterday, expecially due to the huge effort spent in any pressing. I didn't expect Rafa put all these new players together in such a way. And Insigne, damn if I only think about when he played in Pescara (I also met him around the city a couple of times) with Verratti, Immobile and Sansovini. What a quartet they were...


And, man, how about Milan's undeserving victory? Daaamn. Ok, if you score then it's not undeserved, but I'd like to focus on how the more time passes the lower Milan's level is becoming.
Napoli had a great game. I watched a choppy internet feed, and was impressed by their ability to apply pressure on the dortmund players. They also responded well to dortmund's counterattacks. Dortmund looked decent prior to the first goal, and at times after, but they were lifeless when Weidenfeller got that red card. Napoli and all of their fans were certainly on edge however when they scored in the final minutes of the game. Napoli's win makes this group even tougher to get out of for Dortmund. Next round of matches should be really interesting. Dortmund tied Nuremberg in the Bundesliga on Saturday, and looked at a loss for creating goals. Klopp replaced 4 starters from the Napoli game, so obv he wasn't too impressed with their performances. Kudos to Napoli though, great game from them. And they lost Cavani, and Lavezzi?
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:02 PM   #8835 (permalink)
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sorry mate, no.

hazard, mata, oscar is one of the best trios in europe, and certainly good enough to mount a serious assault on winning the premiership, (which as i've said a few times, could still happen, i had them as my favourites at the start of the season.)

there is very little difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-5-1, it's pretty much just what you do with the two wide players from the 3. Imo, if you are asking them to drop deeper, and giving them defensive duties, they are joining the 2 from midfield, not operating as attackers.

of course, there are different ways of operating a 4-5-1, i'm not accusing them of being pulis' stoke team!

and again, i'm a bit sick of the modern emphasis on individuals. not only are the 3 players you mentioned top, top players, but it's the tactics and the team identity that allows good players to shine. Yes, having great players is important, and their collective strength is important to success, but a good collection of players with great tactics and togetherness can massively over-achieve, and a world-class collective of players certainly can, often, under-achieve.
They've only played together for one season.

You were the one who mentioned the 4-5-1. Having 2 CAMs is a defensive flaw. Especially 2 who aren't known for work rate/d.

Well obviously. Those 3 players are the best in their position(s) and they have/had chemistry contrary to this belief that they didn't. When players are together for 3 seasons chemistry is there.
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:14 PM   #8836 (permalink)
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Man City anyone? Yes, they won the premiership one year, but absolutely crashed out of the Champions League in quite a pathetic fashion two years in a row.

Without top rate players, and a quality, inventive coach, a team will be very lucky to go far domestically or in Europe. But, I absolutely agree that tactics, and a collective team identity play a huge role in this. Madrid crashed out of the semi's to Bayern in 2012, BVB in 2013, and an argument could be made that they have superior players to both clubs. They did not however appear to possess the chemistry amongst their players, and it showed.

I'm very interested to see how the whole Bale situation plays out. Because his addition plays into the idea of buying the best, and not building a squad. Ozil is one of those glue guys, provided a lot of assists to his Madrid teammates. I think RM have the depth to deal with his loss, but they don't have anyone who can fit into his role. Obviously they didn't need him vs Gala, but their league performances seem to have suffered so far.
Yup.

Um yes they have/had chemistry. Link up play, god like statistics, 3 trophies, 3 straight UCL semifinals. You can't play at a high level of play like that without having chemistry. I wouldn't call losing in penalties - the game of Russian Roulette - a giant indication of a loss, etc. Bayern have years of experience together vs a Real side which was only in its 2nd true year together (especially for guys like Sami, Mesut and Angel). The year after losing by 1 goal isn't exactly a giant loss. However, people often forget that Pepe, who had practically never played with Varane was playing in that 1st leg, not Ramos. Arbeloa was also not playing and Essien of all people was playing RB.

I agree that Ozil will be missed. Someone had to be sold and unfortunately it was him.

Also

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Old 09-22-2013, 12:20 PM   #8837 (permalink)
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And they lost Cavani, and Lavezzi?
Lavezzi wasn't this summer.

Also







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Old 09-22-2013, 01:07 PM   #8838 (permalink)
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Man City anyone? Yes, they won the premiership one year, but absolutely crashed out of the Champions League in quite a pathetic fashion two years in a row.

Without top rate players, and a quality, inventive coach, a team will be very lucky to go far domestically or in Europe. But, I absolutely agree that tactics, and a collective team identity play a huge role in this. Madrid crashed out of the semi's to Bayern in 2012, BVB in 2013, and an argument could be made that they have superior players to both clubs. They did not however appear to possess the chemistry amongst their players, and it showed.

I'm very interested to see how the whole Bale situation plays out. Because his addition plays into the idea of buying the best, and not building a squad. Ozil is one of those glue guys, provided a lot of assists to his Madrid teammates. I think RM have the depth to deal with his loss, but they don't have anyone who can fit into his role. Obviously they didn't need him vs Gala, but their league performances seem to have suffered so far.
yeah, man city and real were the teams i was thinking of. City weren't even great the year they won the league, they had chemistry issues then too.

i wouldn't say you need "top-rate" players to be successful. Guess we're splitting hairs now, what is a "top-rate" player? But, you certainly need very good players. Not necessarily in every position (and subs as well!) like city and real. guys like pisczek, schmlezer, grosskreutz, bender, blazykowski typify a good player playing a massive role for a top team. They do have a lot of very good players as well tho.

Imo, it's the inventive coach that is more important.

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Yup.

Um yes they have/had chemistry. Link up play, god like statistics, 3 trophies, 3 straight UCL semifinals. You can't play at a high level of play like that without having chemistry. I wouldn't call losing in penalties - the game of Russian Roulette - a giant indication of a loss, etc. Bayern have years of experience together vs a Real side which was only in its 2nd true year together (especially for guys like Sami, Mesut and Angel). The year after losing by 1 goal isn't exactly a giant loss. However, people often forget that Pepe, who had practically never played with Varane was playing in that 1st leg, not Ramos. Arbeloa was also not playing and Essien of all people was playing RB.

I agree that Ozil will be missed. Someone had to be sold and unfortunately it was him.

Also

come on mate, dortmund absolutely destroyed real! and that typifies the point me and rene have been trying to make about the sum being greater than the parts, by tactics and chemistry.

real were lucky to only lose 4-1 in the first leg, and dortmund dominated the 1st half of the 2nd leg as well. Basically completely dominated 3 of the 4 halves, taught them a footballing lesson. 2 late goals doesn't change that.
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:18 PM   #8839 (permalink)
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wow, city annihilating man utd. Moyes really struggling.

commentator who really annoys me from bbc just said that utd shouldn't have bought fellaini, they should've bought ozil. Fellaini is too similar to carrick. Firstly, they should've bought fellaini AND ozil! and secondly fellaini is NOTHING like carrick!

carrick and fellaini is a perfect middle 2. One is all physical and energetic, the other picks a pass. Ozil, rooney, welbeck would've been great behind van persie.

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Old 09-22-2013, 02:01 PM   #8840 (permalink)
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yeah, man city and real were the teams i was thinking of. City weren't even great the year they won the league, they had chemistry issues then too.

i wouldn't say you need "top-rate" players to be successful. Guess we're splitting hairs now, what is a "top-rate" player? But, you certainly need very good players. Not necessarily in every position (and subs as well!) like city and real. guys like pisczek, schmlezer, grosskreutz, bender, blazykowski typify a good player playing a massive role for a top team. They do have a lot of very good players as well tho.

Imo, it's the inventive coach that is more important.



come on mate, dortmund absolutely destroyed real! and that typifies the point me and rene have been trying to make about the sum being greater than the parts, by tactics and chemistry.

real were lucky to only lose 4-1 in the first leg, and dortmund dominated the 1st half of the 2nd leg as well. Basically completely dominated 3 of the 4 halves, taught them a footballing lesson. 2 late goals doesn't change that.
Yeah - in 1 game yes, and that was the first game. But you're acting like there's zero chemistry on that squad. 4-3 aggregate. But hey yes, that is getting destroyed.

The biggest issue with Mou's reign at Real (which you both have not mentioned) besides his arrogance/pride in the last season (which cost the squad the Copa del Rey) was rotations. Mou was absolutely horrible at rotating the squad. That's why near the end of the season the starting XI would be gassed and then guys filling in wouldn't have the necessary experience/fitness/game time to match the starters' level of play.

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