Muhammad Ali
Old 09-09-2010, 01:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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So i'm in the middle of watching a documentary on the Thrilla in Manila and i seriously can't believe how much of a prick Ali was specifically towards Joe Frazier. For those that don't know Frazier and Ali had one of the most heated rivalries in all of sports. These guys fucking hated eachother and i would say it was primarily instigated by Ali himself. You really see it during the days leading up to the fight in Manila. Ali constantly throwing these pretty brutal racial attacks towards Frazier: some real mean-spirited stuff that crossed about every line we have in what would be acceptible today. Strange thing was Frazier and Ali were friends with Frazier actually lobbying for Ali to get his boxing liscence back when he had it revoked because of his refusing to serve in Vietnam. Joe also helped him out financially during that time as ali was broke which only makes the way Ali treated him later that much harder to take. anyways, you could also see Ali messing with Foreman during the whole Zaire event (rumble in the jungle). apparently the whole thing really got to Foreman and he went into a deep depression afterwards.

General feeling is that Ali today is a sporting hero and legend who should be praised while in reality guy did some seriously regrettable stuff in the name of his sport/legacy.

It's interesting.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fancylad View Post
So i'm in the middle of watching a documentary on the Thrilla in Manila and i seriously can't believe how much of a prick Ali was specifically towards Joe Frazier. For those that don't know Frazier and Ali had one of the most heated rivalries in all of sports. These guys fucking hated eachother and i would say it was primarily instigated by Ali himself. You really see it during the days leading up to the fight in Manila. Ali constantly throwing these pretty brutal racial attacks towards Frazier: some real mean-spirited stuff that crossed about every line we have in what would be acceptible today. Strange thing was Frazier and Ali were friends with Frazier actually lobbying for Ali to get his boxing liscence back when he had it revoked because of his refusing to serve in Vietnam. Joe also helped him out financially during that time as ali was broke which only makes the way Ali treated him later that much harder to take. anyways, you could also see Ali messing with Foreman during the whole Zaire event (rumble in the jungle). apparently the whole thing really got to Foreman and he went into a deep depression afterwards.

General feeling is that Ali today is a sporting hero and legend who should be praised while in reality guy did some seriously regrettable stuff in the name of his sport/legacy.

It's interesting.
It was a different time/era. What he was doing was seen as socially acceptable at the time.

Ali is still the greatest Mind-fucker of all time. No one can get into their opponents head like he could.

Ps. Why is this in the Raps section?
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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It was a different time/era. What he was doing was seen as socially acceptable at the time.

Ali is still the greatest Mind-fucker of all time. No one can get into their opponents head like he could.

Ps. Why is this in the Raps section?
I don't think it was acceptable especially given the time. Racial issues and civil rights issues were huge at that time. i don't think we can truly grasp it now, but things really sucked back then in America on that front. And here's Ali being taunting his opponents with outright racism. Like not subtle. It was blatant. dude crossed many lines.

Ali was a hype machine. Talking was just as much his game as boxing. kinda like how you see today with wrestlers in WWE. Guys like Foreman and Frazier were boxers and quietly went about their business as boxers.

I just don't think Ali was as great a guy as people paint him.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Whats funny is you can debate that Fraizer AND Foreman were better fighters than Ali. Ali had the gift of the gab and pushed the envelope doing so. His mouth was just as dirty as Archie Bunkers but was all was excepted back then

Dutches is right it was a different time. Ali still the best Showman sports has ever seen

Ps. He was way better as Clay than after the name change
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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i don't understand how it was socially acceptable at the time when he was notoriously hated for his unsportsmanlike conduct and trash talking. people were amused by how he spoke, kinda like how people listen to anne coulter. they didn't like or accept it.

i remember getting a biography video on him when i was younger as part of a sports illustrated subscription. i thought he was absolutely amazing, he was way ahead of his time when it came to boxing. But, as i got older, he just came across as a giant douche who needed to be grounded. karma did that.

he gets graded as a first class asshole by me.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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i don't understand how it was socially acceptable at the time when he was notoriously hated for his unsportsmanlike conduct and trash talking. people were amused by how he spoke, kinda like how people listen to anne coulter. they didn't like or accept it.

i remember getting a biography video on him when i was younger as part of a sports illustrated subscription. i thought he was absolutely amazing, he was way ahead of his time when it came to boxing. But, as i got older, he just came across as a giant douche who needed to be grounded. karma did that.

he gets graded as a first class asshole by me.
Wow. This is problably the most asshole bashing I've heard of in Ali.
(speaking of the thread as a whole)
I have a question... If he was White would he be able to get away with the things he did?


Lastly, I'm not gonna bash Ali he is a part of history and he did do bad things but made a lot of people do good. However; Why Ali did you back Don King.... Don King dammit.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Wow. This is problably the most asshole bashing I've heard of in Ali.
(speaking of the thread as a whole)
I have a question... If he was White would he be able to get away with the things he did?
well i guess he could have gotten away with them if you use the whole 'different times' approach, but there's no chance he would be revered like he is today.

As for the general topic in this thread i simply brought it up because it's something that really doesn't get much discussion even though it's fact (Ali's douchiness). Sure the title i gave it is blunt, but call it headline syndrome.

and i'm not trying to bash Ali per se, i'm just talking about stuff that's fresh in my mind based on what i have learned. I'm not trying to make him out to be a jerk. he just was.

Last edited by fancylad; 09-09-2010 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:46 PM   #8 (permalink)
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well i guess he could have gotten away with them if you use the whole 'different times' approach, but there's no chance he would be revered like he is today.

As for the general topic in this thread i simply brought it up because it's something that really doesn't get much discussion even though it's fact (Ali's douchiness). Sure the title i gave it is blunt, but call it headline syndrome.

and i'm not trying to bash Ali per se, i'm just talking about stuff that's fresh in my mind based on what i have learned. I'm not trying to make him out to be a douche. he just was.
Thats all good I enjoy the conversation tahts why I asked the "white" question. Personally I dont' care but the general public are so fanatical when it comes to racism. I don't mind Ali like I said before. No one is a saint and at least he brought good in alot of people. You ask any boxing fan they glow when talking Ali. I love it he is a wonderful starting point in conversation and talking about life. I wish their were more "assholes" like him. He only should have never helped Don King we all woulda been better off.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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how about if he wasn't associated with malcolm x, would people let him get away with the things he said?
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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he also went to a kkk rally and met with their leaders. because he was supported by the nation of islam, and was a member of that group, the divisive politics of blacks with blacks and whites with whites worked for him. he was certainly no champion of intergration, as much as we might want to think that in retrospect.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i was saving that one trane. holding on to for a few more posts. ah well.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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He only should have never helped Don King we all woulda been better off.
did he really help Don King? or was it more along the lines of helping himself?
he fought under the Don king promotion because King promoted the fight that netted him the highest purse ever given to a fighter in the history of boxing (at that time).
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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was just talking with my bro about this last night, so it's fresh in my mind as well.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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He did have some good sides to him as well, but generally, my feeling has always been that most athletes, particularly the great ones, are douchebags one way or another. It happens in other fields of entertainment as well. You have to take what you want and what you can from the good side of their talents.

Ali wasn't so good with the way he treated women either. But he was ultimately a very complicated soul, like most of us are. When you get that amount of exposure, there is no hiding the warts. And with a guy that has been radicalized while losing touch with reality through mega-fame, those warts are going to get ugly.

And Ali and Frazier did eventually smooth things out didn't they?
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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So i'm in the middle of watching a documentary on the Thrilla in Manila and i seriously can't believe how much of a prick Ali was specifically towards Joe Frazier. For those that don't know Frazier and Ali had one of the most heated rivalries in all of sports. These guys fucking hated eachother and i would say it was primarily instigated by Ali himself. You really see it during the days leading up to the fight in Manila. Ali constantly throwing these pretty brutal racial attacks towards Frazier: some real mean-spirited stuff that crossed about every line we have in what would be acceptible today. Strange thing was Frazier and Ali were friends with Frazier actually lobbying for Ali to get his boxing liscence back when he had it revoked because of his refusing to serve in Vietnam. Joe also helped him out financially during that time as ali was broke which only makes the way Ali treated him later that much harder to take. anyways, you could also see Ali messing with Foreman during the whole Zaire event (rumble in the jungle). apparently the whole thing really got to Foreman and he went into a deep depression afterwards.

General feeling is that Ali today is a sporting hero and legend who should be praised while in reality guy did some seriously regrettable stuff in the name of his sport/legacy.

It's interesting.
I have followed Ali quite closely Fancy, might have been a prick thing to do to Joe, but honestly, looking at the scope of what the guy did in his career (he wasn't that great a husband either) Ali wasn't a douche. A lot of people have douche moments, maybe an actor does a bad film, and artist or musician have a bad piece, or a shitty blow up..... you cannot paint their entire body of work as DOUCHE, it's not fair.

ya know.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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did he really help Don King? or was it more along the lines of helping himself?
he fought under the Don king promotion because King promoted the fight that netted him the highest purse ever given to a fighter in the history of boxing (at that time).
I know its all circumstantial but if he picked another promoter we be alot better off.

Your right though and he did sue him later in his career.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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And Ali and Frazier did eventually smooth things out didn't they?
not sure. I think i heard somewhere that Frazier said that he no longer holds any bad feelings or something like that, but i'm not sure how friendly they actually are.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:17 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I have followed Ali quite closely Fancy, might have been a prick thing to do to Joe, but honestly, looking at the scope of what the guy did in his career (he wasn't that great a husband either) Ali wasn't a douche. A lot of people have douche moments, maybe an actor does a bad film, and artist or musician have a bad piece, or a shitty blow up..... you cannot paint their entire body of work as DOUCHE, it's not fair.

ya know.
it has nothing to do with diminishing his body of work or making him out to be any less a fighter. Just saying he was far from a humanitarian in his day.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think we can all see for ourselves here that the guy was far from being anything like Ann Coulter is today. He was extremely thoughtful, and living in a very different time that had to be gone through and worked through, and he was a part of that.




Last edited by LX; 09-09-2010 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 03:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Ali was a good guy in his late 30's, working with kids and stuff
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