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MLB/Jays Thread - Page 600
Old 08-28-2013, 02:06 PM   #11981 (permalink)
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Isn't Pat Hetgen the bullpen coach?
yup
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:14 PM   #11982 (permalink)
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Yes, and other than their bullpen now falling apart and just mailing in the season, they were one of the best pen's in the majors. So he clearly did his job haha.

I don't see how Gibbons can be blamed for this mess, although I don't care if he comes back or not. Theres only so much people can do, its up the the players to actually perform, which they never did. Dickey was a joke of a trade, and it turned out to be as expected. Gave up a real catcher who could of replaced JPA for a washed up knuckleballer who can't even properly throw his signature pitch.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:22 PM   #11983 (permalink)
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Yes, and other than their bullpen now falling apart and just mailing in the season, they were one of the best pen's in the majors. So he clearly did his job haha.

I don't see how Gibbons can be blamed for this mess, although I don't care if he comes back or not. Theres only so much people can do, its up the the players to actually perform, which they never did. Dickey was a joke of a trade, and it turned out to be as expected. Gave up a real catcher who could of replaced JPA for a washed up knuckleballer who can't even properly throw his signature pitch.
Now he's washed up. Lol

What a difference 6 months makes. Lol

As for Gibbons, never should have been brought back here. It was and still is a head scratcher.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:51 PM   #11984 (permalink)
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Now he's washed up. Lol

What a difference 6 months makes. Lol

As for Gibbons, never should have been brought back here. It was and still is a head scratcher.
Dude I never thought of him as great anyway, I don't really care that he won a Cy young, he had a good year big woop. I never ever wanted him on this team.

I'd say I could of predicted this season but I'll get the whole rant about "hindsight" But really this is how its always gone for Toronto's teams so really its nothing new. It was a bad trade to begin, dicky was never ever someone we should of traded for. I wasn't the only one that thought so either. He's shown he has absolutely no ability to pitch in Toronto all year, nor has he ever had any sort of command of his knuckleball.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:28 PM   #11985 (permalink)
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Dude I never thought of him as great anyway, I don't really care that he won a Cy young, he had a good year big woop. I never ever wanted him on this team.

I'd say I could of predicted this season but I'll get the whole rant about "hindsight" But really this is how its always gone for Toronto's teams so really its nothing new. It was a bad trade to begin, dicky was never ever someone we should of traded for. I wasn't the only one that thought so either. He's shown he has absolutely no ability to pitch in Toronto all year, nor has he ever had any sort of command of his knuckleball.
Well, I initially wasn't a great fan of the deal but overall most thought it was a great move. That being said, that deal isn't why we suck. In fact he's sadly been one of our more consistent pitchers. Oyy!! Can't wait for Basketball...
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:41 PM   #11986 (permalink)
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still don't see how this is on gibbons at all.

we're also 2nd in the AL in errors...but what the hell is gibbons supposed to do, go out and field the ball for them? it's not gibbons' fault not one of our outfielders can hit a cutoff guy in the chest. if anything that's on AA for bringing in guys with no fundamentals or no care for fundamentals.

an interesting thought i heard on the radio the other day was that NONE of our core guys were developed through our system. listen that's what happens when you trade all your prospects away for proven veterans, i get that. but the issue is that you can't control the way these guys were developed in the first place, which I would attribute to no one knowing how to bunt, field, throw, etc. etc. It's hard to teach the fundamentals to a team full of veterans with piss poor fundamentals. Guys you put through the system are another story.
agreed. gibby is the scape goat right now, i have no problem with him

its the players who failed miserably
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:48 PM   #11987 (permalink)
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Well, I initially wasn't a great fan of the deal but overall most thought it was a great move. That being said, that deal isn't why we suck. In fact he's sadly been one of our more consistent pitchers. Oyy!! Can't wait for Basketball...
I never was and I'm still not. He's not consistent at all, none of our pitchers are really, they've all stunk all year. If we had any consistency at all we'd be above .500 at this point in the season as it wouldn't really be that hard with all the "talent" we have.

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agreed. gibby is the scape goat right now, i have no problem with him

its the players who failed miserably

Ya and given all the blame he's taken, and how the seasons gone he still hasn't thrown a single person under the bus. I remember a little while ago they were talking about how he hasn't come down on anyone in the media all year despite the pathetic performances.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:52 PM   #11988 (permalink)
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Ya and given all the blame he's taken, and how the seasons gone he still hasn't thrown a single person under the bus. I remember a little while ago they were talking about how he hasn't come down on anyone in the media all year despite the pathetic performances.
Yippy!
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:53 PM   #11989 (permalink)
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Yippy!
I'm just sayin dude, at least he's not gonna slam his whole team because he's taking the heat. Anyone else would of started calling out all his players and causing a massive shitstorm.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:57 PM   #11990 (permalink)
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I'm just sayin dude, at least he's not gonna slam his whole team because he's taking the heat. Anyone else would of started calling out all his players and causing a massive shitstorm.
Then you must love Casey? I never understood re-hiring him at all and still don't. Like I've said before, he's been hired twice by us when no other team wanted to hire him even once as a manager. We went out and spent 120mil on the roster and then hired a retread that was a shit ball player, who was coaching in the minors. It's like buying an expensive car and putting on the cheapest tires you can find. Tires nobody else wants.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:08 PM   #11991 (permalink)
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This team was just happy to be great on paper and didn't do their work in the offseason. Hopefully this season has had something in it for everyone; a taste of potential for the overachievers as well as some humility for those who have vastly underperformed. If they use this season as a learning tool, they have an opportunity to come back and be very good next year. It's rare that a group (with the track records they all have), would ALL have down years. I think they'll be better, but we'll see what anthopolous can add to make them ACTUAL contenders in 2014.

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Old 08-28-2013, 11:01 PM   #11992 (permalink)
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Yes, and other than their bullpen now falling apart and just mailing in the season, they were one of the best pen's in the majors. So he clearly did his job haha.

I don't see how Gibbons can be blamed for this mess, although I don't care if he comes back or not. Theres only so much people can do, its up the the players to actually perform, which they never did. Dickey was a joke of a trade, and it turned out to be as expected. Gave up a real catcher who could of replaced JPA for a washed up knuckleballer who can't even properly throw his signature pitch.
I think mangers have the least amount of effect in all the major sports. Mangers might be +/- 5 wins or so after the season is over, but it is mostly on players. Mangers job is to motivate, control the bullpen, write the daily lineup. The NL is a little different than the AL because of DH, NL mangers has a couple more decision to make in game(When to PH, who to PH, etc).

But it really is mostly on the players.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:03 AM   #11993 (permalink)
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I think mangers have the least amount of effect in all the major sports. Mangers might be +/- 5 wins or so after the season is over, but it is mostly on players. Mangers job is to motivate, control the bullpen, write the daily lineup. The NL is a little different than the AL because of DH, NL mangers has a couple more decision to make in game(When to PH, who to PH, etc).

But it really is mostly on the players.
Na because on the flip side of it, they should be drilling the fundementals of baseball into their players... We can't even bunt man.
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Old 08-29-2013, 09:33 AM   #11994 (permalink)
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Na because on the flip side of it, they should be drilling the fundementals of baseball into their players... We can't even bunt man.
Go watch other teams and see if they can bunt. The reds suck at it also. Bunting is something that should be taught in the minors. For some reason MOST MLB players struggle to bunt, it is not just a Toronto Blue Jays thing.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:43 PM   #11995 (permalink)
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Go watch other teams and see if they can bunt. The reds suck at it also. Bunting is something that should be taught in the minors. For some reason MOST MLB players struggle to bunt, it is not just a Toronto Blue Jays thing.
We've improved in no aspect of the game this entire season so they're doing nothing as much as they're doing anything. The only person on the entire team whos improved in any way is Lawrie.
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:47 PM   #11996 (permalink)
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We've improved in no aspect of the game this entire season so they're doing nothing as much as they're doing anything. The only person on the entire team whos improved in any way is Lawrie.
I wouldn't blame the manger for that though. Some of it? Sure. But a lot of it needs to go on the players also. Players need to take responsibilities. Did Buehrle, Dickey, Johnson, forget how to pitch because they have a new manger this year?

These three are HUGE disappointments and are having their worst season in quite some time.


I don't think the hitting/lineup is a huge problem. Edwin is having a great year. Rasmus is having a better year than last. Reyes is playing hurt, can't blame manger for that. Joey Bats is having a solid year. As a team, the Blue Jays are 7th in Runs. So his lineup/hitting seems to be working.

The pitching is where it is loss. Do you blame the manger for that? Or do you blame the players for playing below their talent level?

I say you put most of the blame on the players.

Just a outsider view
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:58 PM   #11997 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to say mangers do nothing. I'm just saying I think their impact in a 162 game MAJOR LEAGUE regular season is small. A great manger might win you 5-6 more games then you should. A bad manger might lose a few less than you can.

Most of the time, most mangers are going to put out the same lineup, and have the same starting rotation. The difference is some mangers know how to use their bullpen better than others, know when to give players days off, PH, etc.

Some mangers have different strategies. I think playoff time, mangers impact are more impacted because it is a 5-7 games series. Bullpen becomes more important, when to steal, sac bunt, who to PH, etc.

But in a 162 season, I think most mangers are going to do the same. It is more about what mangers can relate to their players and get the most out of them.


It is not a sport where you are calling plays every time down the court, or on the football field. Pitchers pitch, hitters hit.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:07 PM   #11998 (permalink)
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Here is a good article from SI in 2010 discussing mangers impact for those who have time to read it. Not very long article, only 1 1/2 pages. Good read though.

How much impact do MLB managers really have on their teams? - Cliff Corcoran - SI.com
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:39 PM   #11999 (permalink)
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Cop Blames Blue Jays for Fan Running on Field in Witty Police Report | Bleacher Report

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Old 08-30-2013, 08:13 PM   #12000 (permalink)
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There's probably less then 1,000 people in Houston to watch the Mariners and Astros.
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