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-   -   Colangelo vs. Burke - who sucks more? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f47/colangelo-vs-burke-who-sucks-more-24107.html)

fancylad 11-24-2012 01:51 PM

Colangelo vs. Burke - who sucks more?
 
They're both named Brian. they were both brought in here as sure fire can't miss general managers, yet after many years their teams both suck and are at the bottom of both leagues.

They've both made some terrible moves. They've both traded away valuable draft picks. They've both signed marginal talent to some insane contracts.

So the question is simple who sucks more? YOu're picking the worse one remember not who you think is better because that might imply that one of them is good and they're not. their both bad and both they're teams are ass.

Note: in no way is this supposed to or allowed to turn into a hockey vs. basketball thread. Totally not the point here and any such post will be deleted. This is intended to be a critique on two general managers who have both been failures. Let's see how this unfolds it should be close.

jeffb 11-24-2012 02:02 PM

How many high draft picks has colangelo traded away, specifically lottery picks....any? I'll say this, at least Colangelo had success his first couple years here. Hockey is much tougher to build because it takes longer to develop players and the roster is much bigger.

Playoff appearances- BC wins 2-0
Division titles- BC wins 1-0
Executive of the year: BC
Who's traded away more high picks, I believe that's BB.


All in all one isn't much better than the other in their time here. But given that BB should have an advantage in attracting players here over any other GM in the city by a country mile he's probably been more of a disapointment. But i'd say fire them both atp. I'm sure most will disagree but that wouldn't be any more surprising than my opinion on this topic.


Ha, I fucked up my vote.

fancylad 11-24-2012 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 708742)
How many high draft picks has colangelo traded away, specifically lottery picks....any? I'll say this, at least Colangelo had success his first couple years here. Hockey is much tougher to build because it takes longer to develop players and the roster is much bigger.

I don't know how many exactly but i know everytime i see ROy Hibbert i think of Jermaine Oneal and it makes my blood boil and let's not forget that the worst case of us giving up a draft pick will be this draft. Oh we all better come to grips with it being a lottery pick. For some reason i think there have been others, but i'm not sure so if someone can clarify i would appreciate it.

In the case of Burke's lottery pick give away, at least he got a real 'star'. and one that committed to a multiple year contract right away. Say what you will about Kessel - he's one dimensional and all that, but it can't be argued that he has a ton of talent and flat out scores goals and is one of the best in the league at doing it.

jeffb 11-24-2012 02:22 PM

[quote=fancylad;708745]I don't know how many exactly but i know everytime i see ROy Hibbert i think of Jermaine Oneal and it makes my blood boil and let's not forget that the worst case of us giving up a draft pick will be this draft. Oh we all better come to grips with it being a lottery pick. For some reason i think there have been others, but i'm not sure so if someone can clarify i would appreciate it.

In the case of Burke's lottery pick give away, at least he got a real 'star'. and one that committed to a multiple year contract right away. Say what you will about Kessel - he's one dimensional and all that, but it can't be argued that he has a ton of talent and flat out scores goals and is one of the best in the league at doing it.[/quote




Meehh, that was outside the lottery and we apparently weren't going to pick Hibbert. we picked him FOR Indiana. I didn't want JO here at the time and i don't have a problem with that deal. Most were in favor of that trade and those are the ones now that have a big issue with it. As for Kessel, I can't speak too much to that other than he isn't worth two high lottery pick on a team that had just been gutted. BB came in and didn't want to say he had a 5yr plan because he wanted to start competing for the playoffs right away. Huge mistake. As for the high pick for Lowry, how anyone can argue that was a good deal is beyond me. Gary forbes and likely a middle lottery pick for Lowry is a good deal for both sides.

You can easliy argue for either being worse. But I still go back to BB should have an easier time of attracting higher end talent to come here and he's failed miseably. And what is his draft record since coming here? Imo BC has had a little more success while having a lot more road blocks in getting true talent here.


BOTH NEED TO GO IMO, flip a coin.

Chiggmo 11-24-2012 04:02 PM

If the new coach in TO for the Leafs flops then yes ship out BB, but I was never a Ron Wilson fan at all, I think hes terrible, so lets see how the new guy does. But I'm not far off agreeing. Problem with the leafs seems to be motivation... same as the raps for the most part haha.

Bargn88 11-24-2012 04:12 PM

Brian Burke has no young talent, and he fucked up royally with the Kessel trade, 2 straight tanking years with no picks to show for it. He pretty much built Bostons team for the future.

We have good young talent from the draft: Jonas, DD, Andrea(not so young but still a draft pick), Ross etc..

There's a core in place for the raptors, the leafs don't have a core.

http://i50.tinypic.com/1hw585.jpg

pzabby 11-24-2012 04:24 PM

I stopped watching hockey after the leafs got rid of, now don't kill me over it, but pat quinn? he was the last good coach to coach the leafs. it all went to shit from there. BC in his tenure has done so much more than BB. it's not even a competition between the two. I pretty much agree with everything jeff said earlier, but, depending on how this season plays out, BC might need to go. I just fear his replacement thanks to fucking mlse

Beans 11-24-2012 05:13 PM

I don't know which one sucks more, but Colangelo spells his first name Bryan, which probably gives him the edge in suckiness.

LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! 11-24-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 708788)
I stopped watching hockey after the leafs got rid of, now don't kill me over it, but pat quinn? he was the last good coach to coach the leafs. it all went to shit from there. BC in his tenure has done so much more than BB. it's not even a competition between the two. I pretty much agree with everything jeff said earlier, but, depending on how this season plays out, BC might need to go. I just fear his replacement thanks to fucking mlse

I stopped watching hockey after the 03/04 season. Haven't supported the NHL's Knicks since then.

pzabby 11-24-2012 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! (Post 708801)
I stopped watching hockey after the 03/04 season. Haven't supported the NHL's Knicks since then.

nice comparison

fancylad 11-24-2012 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beans (Post 708800)
I don't know which one sucks more, but Colangelo spells his first name Bryan, which probably gives him the edge in suckiness.

LOL. i knew that. at least i think i did.:o

fancylad 11-24-2012 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 708788)
I stopped watching hockey after the leafs got rid of, now don't kill me over it, but pat quinn? he was the last good coach to coach the leafs. it all went to shit from there. BC in his tenure has done so much more than BB. it's not even a competition between the two. I pretty much agree with everything jeff said earlier, but, depending on how this season plays out, BC might need to go. I just fear his replacement thanks to fucking mlse

so much more? Have you and i been watching the same team? Guy had one good year in which it should be noted that every other team in the division as W-E-A-K as were most in the conference (Leastern conference remember?). After that he had a very average second year and then it's been flat out garbage since then.

It's very much a competition between the two. and if Bryan (got the spelling right there hahaha) is even decent please list me his 3 best moves or decisions in your opinion. I am curious.

i will name my top 3 Colangelo moments (in no real order).
1. signing Jorge Garbajosa/Anthony Parker (i'll qualify this as one move let's call it Euro scouting in that first offseason)
2. the Jonas draft pick
3. trading Oneal, moon for Marion, banks.

jeffb 11-24-2012 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad (Post 708816)
so much more? Have you and i been watching the same team? Guy had one good year in which it should be noted that every other team in the division as W-E-A-K as were most in the conference (Leastern conference remember?). After that he had a very average second year and then it's been flat out garbage since then.

It's very much a competition between the two. and if Bryan (got the spelling right there hahaha) is even decent please list me his 3 best moves or decisions in your opinion. I am curious.

i will name my top 3 Colangelo moments (in no real order).
1. signing Jorge Garbajosa/Anthony Parker (i'll qualify this as one move let's call it Euro scouting in that first offseason)
2. the Jonas draft pick
3. trading Oneal, moon for Marion, banks.

In no particular order:

1- Garbo, Parker
2- Defino for 2 2nd rounders
3- Hoffa for Humphries
4- Villenueva for T.J Ford
5- JO, Moon for Marion, Banks
6- Deavan George (didn't play again) for Belinelli
7- Unloading Turkoglu for Barbosa
8- Valanciunas pick
9- Kyle Lowry deal
10- Trading for Amir

All very solid basketball moves. I honestly would also say that at the time the Tukoglu trade was pretty impressive since he was one of the biggest FA on the market and was deemed at the time as a huge pickup. Not our fault he shit the bed and had a shit attitude. The subsequent deal for Barbosa was even more impressive imo.

Dark Knight 11-24-2012 07:56 PM

Trading for Amir was up there as well.

jeffb 11-24-2012 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargn88 (Post 708785)
Brian Burke has no young talent, and he fucked up royally with the Kessel trade, 2 straight tanking years with no picks to show for it. He pretty much built Bostons team for the future.

We have good young talent from the draft: Jonas, DD, Andrea(not so young but still a draft pick), Ross etc..

There's a core in place for the raptors, the leafs don't have a core.

http://i50.tinypic.com/1hw585.jpg

+1

fancylad 11-24-2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 708818)
In no particular order:

1- Garbo, Parker
2- Defino for 2 2nd rounders
3- Hoffa for Humphries
4- Villenueva for T.J Ford
5- JO, Moon for Marion, Banks
6- Deavan George (didn't play again) for Belinelli
7- Unloading Turkoglu for Barbosa
8- Valanciunas pick
9- Kyle Lowry deal


All very solid basketball moves

sure they're ok, but within the context of the bigger picture they're not so good or at the very least the luster is taken off a bit. outside of Val, parker and at the moment lowry (although i would bet the farm he won't apply here soon enough) all of those players were raptors for a very short time and were either traded away or didn't want to come back. Belinelli for George. Loved that deal when it happened. loved it. then a little while later he ships out Beli for straight up garbage.

and plus most of those moves didn't really mean much for actual team success. Did any of those really translate into team success?

fancylad 11-24-2012 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargn88 (Post 708785)

are you posting that picture for ironic purposes?

jeffb 11-24-2012 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad (Post 708821)
sure they're ok, but within the context of the bigger picture they're not so good or at the very least the luster is taken off a bit. outside of Val, parker and at the moment lowry (although i would bet the farm he won't apply here soon enough) all of those players were raptors for a very short time and were either traded away or didn't want to come back. Belinelli for George. Loved that deal when it happened. loved it. then a little while later he ships out Beli for straight up garbage.

and plus most of those moves didn't really mean much for actual team success. Did any of those really translate into team success?


He won every single one of those trades and yes I would say T.J Ford contributed to some success, same with Delfino and Humphries for Hoffa was an absolute steal....hoffa was out of the league within a year. Belinelli for Deavan George was the same thing, George never played again. I would also say that getting Rasho here was a solid move and contributed to our success in our two playoff years.

jeffb 11-24-2012 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad (Post 708823)
are you posting that picture for ironic purposes?

Please. We currently have 5 lottery draft picks on our team + 3 young 1st rounders aquired by other means. In Colangelo's first 6 years he never traded a lottery pick (until Lowry). I don't understand anyone saying he's traded away all these draft picks. The only draft pick anyone could question is the #17 pick for JO which nobody gave a damn about until Bosh left.

fancylad 11-24-2012 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargn88 (Post 708785)
Brian Burke has no young talent, and he fucked up royally with the Kessel trade, 2 straight tanking years with no picks to show for it. He pretty much built Bostons team for the future.

We have good young talent from the draft: Jonas, DD, Andrea(not so young but still a draft pick), Ross etc..

There's a core in place for the raptors, the leafs don't have a core.

dude are you serious? Have you not watched the games this year? Two of the 4 players you mentioned are completely unproven (even thought i really like Val) and 95% of the fanbase is praying to have one of them traded.

I'm not saying the Leafs core is great or better or anything, but there is a collection of good players there. Kessel, Lupul (who i absolutely love and whose injury was the main reason the team collapsed), Gardiner, Grabovski. Those are some nice players man.

If you think the raptors are in a significantly better position than the leafs than i think you are a massive homer.


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