Is the United States of America imperialist? - Page 3
Old 05-15-2008, 12:55 PM   #41 (permalink)
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listhen no offence benzo i bet ur a nice guy and all...but ur a puppet...gotta believe what ever someone tells u....read into the issue in 9/11 and see discrepensies...i know iyou can just say i ama consipiracy theroist...but the facts all point one way and thats not in afghnanstian...its the american government itself....
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:59 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJayW View Post
listhen no offence benzo i bet ur a nice guy and all...but ur a puppet...gotta believe what ever someone tells u....read into the issue in 9/11 and see discrepensies...i know iyou can just say i ama consipiracy theroist...but the facts all point one way and thats not in afghnanstian...its the american government itself....
See this is what i wanted to get too without calling you out about it specificlly.....

you honestly believe that America attacked itself??

I am a puppet?....

I think not. I am very much a free thinker, and do you know why, because I have been given that right by the people who came and fought before me. You have the right to speak out against your government, you have the right to be a free and prcticing muslim, and in the same breath you would have those right refused to others.

I understand there is "evidence" of many things.....I also know that most of them are bullshit.
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:01 PM   #43 (permalink)
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why cant they attack themselves....

as you so nicely put it

"the means justify the ends"
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:03 PM   #44 (permalink)
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why cant they attack themselves....

as you so nicely put it

"the means justify the ends"
I believe I said "the ends justify the means".

and we need to stop know because this has gone from....good talk...to insane rambling.
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:05 PM   #45 (permalink)
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lol alrighty.....i win!
lol jks

good discussion...i geuss we both wont budge on this topic
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:20 PM   #46 (permalink)
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American lost in the second world war - 500000

Russians - 20.000.000

My grandfather was a US bomber in a B-17 in the czech republic and Italy in the second world war. He always told me, "What America did was nothing compared to what the soviets did. They were the true heroes."

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Old 05-15-2008, 09:25 PM   #47 (permalink)
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And the true reason like in every war was economic. The second world war was what got the US out of the great depresion.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:33 PM   #48 (permalink)
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And the true reason like in every war was economic. The second world war was what got the US out of the great depresion.
I want to elaborate on so much, but in reality the US was essentially copying the German way out of the war. Mass mobilization.
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:48 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Every war has an economic factor involving opportunistic industries, but I think that's born more out of the war taking place, than industry inciting it.

After all the research I've done about WW2 over the past couple of years, I've been shocked about how much wasn't taught to us kids in high school. The more I learn on my own, the more I realize the horrors of that time.
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:27 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I agree that the US has in a large part been a benign power, and has for the most part looked towards being at the forefront of free, democratic nations through economic means. That is through aid and through trade. But there has been some devastating exploitation in Latin America, along with policies of destabilizing weaker countries to gain economic advantages, which often lead to atrocities committed against populations that were taught and encouraged by the CIA. And there has been a tremendous amount of war by proxy throughout the Cold War era, that lead to arms and mines being spread throughout developing countries around the globe, usually to benefit some very bad, very undemocratic people. I believe George Bush pushes that last point himself.

But there has not been much of an argument that the US had implicit empirical intentions rather than just attempting to gain advantages and maintain what it saw as world order. Of course the Soviets played the same games, and there have been countries that went bad all on their own. But the Soviets were eventually done in by their attempt to gain more influence throughout the world, and were not able to meet the needs of their closest allies or their own people after getting bogged down in Afghanistan, and feeling compelled to continue spending on armaments in order to not fall behind the US any further. They saw this coming all the way back in the 50's, and Khrushchev tried to get Eisenhower to end the Cold War for the benefit of both countries. The americans felt that disarming could be verified, but they also had become beholden to military spending to some degree. Eisenhower warned of the military-industrial complex as he left office. It was a force that only grew in strength over the decades that followed however, and was perhaps the greatest determining factor in shaping the world order. National interest was supplanted by a balance of power that favored a growing, international military bonanza. This lead to Suharto's genocidal intentions supported by the free world, Pinochet thought of as a friend of the free world, Saddam offered weapons of mass destruction and the intelligence required to use them by Rumsfield in person, and bin Laden's early attempts at organising radical muslims with the full support of the west. And those are just the highlights.

Still the population of the US always held fast to the idea that they were merely protecting themselves, and in so doing, keeping the free world strong. The fear of the barbarians at the gate was, and still is the constant theme of the political right in the US. Fear and patriotism were joined hand in hand. Questioning the lies and war crimes that lead to the tragedies in Vietnam, Latin America, Indonesia, and Iraq, brought only political weakness. And so the actual intentions were never really looked at closely, and it was easiest to think that thoughts of empire were not really anything ever implied. The american people have been content to think of themselves as being within something of a bubble, bounded by vast oceans and friendly neighbors. And they were also content to allow strong leaders do what was required to keep order out there in the dirty, ugly world that they had little interest in. Look at the balance of newscasts, information in newsmagazines and newpapers, and speeches given by politicians over the past couple of decades, and you will see it is all about what is going on within their own borders, whether it be petty or meaningful. There was no interest in any kind of an empire, although if one were to happen by accident, they would not have been upset as long as they needn't learn anything concrete about people in faraway lands, other then how to extract money from their pockets.

9/11 burst the bubble, but it did not change the overall balance. Fear was mongered more than ever, and accepted as a means of giving their leaders the right to restore that beautiful bubble as much as possible. President Bush declared war and then told his people to go shopping.

And the neo-cons stepped in and declared that the time for the American Empire was now. There was no more patience for wars by proxy or destabilization. Military solutions were given pre-eminence, as it was decided that it was time to use all the might that had been accumulated. It was declared loud and clear - you other nations are either for us or against us. Books were written by administration officials about the need to invade Syria, Iran, Brazil, Argentina, Cuba, and whoever else stood in the way of dividing the world up in America's favor. And then it became obvious that America and Empire were as bad a mix as Soviet and Empire, or really any nation and Empire. And at this point they need to not only move away from imperialistic motives completely, as Britain did not too long ago in order to survive, and as Russia did even more recently. I think they will need to lay bare all the underground workings that built an Empire of sorts without full acknowledgment of its people, and return to the sort of benign uses of power that everyone recognizes from the past. Otherwise their own bubble will merely corrode under the influences of the global marketplace, and there will be little to differentiate between the dirty, ugly world they have chosen to know so little of, and their own little worlds. And we can all race towards the 14th C together.

So yes - America is and has been imperialist for more than a century, but it's only good at it when it doesn't really mean to push for a hard and fast definition of what that means. As it exerts itself as a superpower it tends to lose credibility, legitimacy, and real power. When it reaches the point when it effects it's own populace, then it loses the power to inspire the people all over the world, and since that is where their greatest influence lies, it negates the might of their military. The hearts and minds end up lost, and with that, like with every Empire, it all crumbles eventually, or is given up as something of a delusion that can no longer be supported by history, and all those who fought and died before us. And yet there is much to fall back on that can be supported by all the sacrifices of the past. And in the values that the people of the US never lost sight of, in the midst of much fear and distraction, much more influence can be gained, if in less concrete forms. By focussing on the world outside their borders, and not allowing the military to do so alone, the people of the US can become familiarized with how those values can be given new life.

I just hope that happens.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:33 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Holy crap LX .... that was a darn near novel.
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:00 AM   #52 (permalink)
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the novels ALWAYS stop threads.

Nice work LX
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:44 PM   #53 (permalink)
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It's like everything I learned and read over many years packed into a few paragraphs. I wish I could fit it all into a fortune cookie, but it probably made little sense as it is.

I guess it basically comes down to the truths that people all over the world accept about american values versus the political expediency that has too often contradicted those values.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:07 PM   #54 (permalink)
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well i liked it.

bit heavy for some.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:11 PM   #55 (permalink)
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*zips lip*
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