Transexual Rights?
Old 03-06-2009, 09:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Club owner going to Rights Tribunal over transsexual case

Feb 25, 2009 06:19 PM
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THE CANADIAN PRESS

The owner of a St. Catharines, Ont., fitness club says he has opted to go to a Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario hearing in a dispute initiated by a transsexual.

The complaint alleges John Fulton denied a pre-operation transsexual access to the women's only areas of his gym.

The transsexual – now a woman – was a man at the time of the incident two years ago.

Following a closed-door mediation hearing Wednesday in Toronto, Fulton said he has opted to go to the tribunal rather than settle.

Fulton says he wasn't sure what to do when the pre-operation transsexual applied to join because his female clients might not be comfortable with a man in their changing room.

Fulton, who denies ever refusing to allow the complainant to use his club, said a date for the hearing hasn't been set.

"I have not said no," he said Wednesday. "The person, who is actually post-op now, is welcome to come and use the club."

Fulton said it all started when he decided to open a women's only section at his fitness club.

A few days later, a woman came in, filled out all the paperwork and just before signing said she was a man, he said.

Fulton said he called the tribunal and was told he had to let the man use the women's facilities, but he said he couldn't get an answer on what his rights and the rights of his female clients are.

"I had to find out what my women's rights were," he said Wednesday.

The person has since had a sex change operation and she's now living in Ottawa, said Fulton, who adds he hopes to use a section of the law dealing public decency in his defence at the hearing.
So this is actually my gym, but this is the first I've heard of this. I think it's ridiculous and I think as long as you still have a frank and beans there is no way you should be allowed in the women's change rooms. What about the rights of the women in there changing?
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:24 AM   #2 (permalink)
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So this is actually my gym, but this is the first I've heard of this. I think it's ridiculous and I think as long as you still have a frank and beans there is no way you should be allowed in the women's change rooms. What about the rights of the women in there changing?
Quite right. I would even go so far as to say that applies with just Frank or Beans.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:42 AM   #3 (permalink)
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if we weren't so bloody puritanical and ashamed of our bodies in the first place this would be a non-issue.

unfortunately, the problem is that we have no public space for anybody from that community. men, in all of our macho glory, are uncomfortable with gay men, let alone men that live as women, in our change rooms.

women are uncomfortable with anybody that has a package in theirs, even though a transexual such as the one described here probably provides no threat and is just looking for a place where she feels comfortable.

at the end of the day, our conceptions around gender and sexuality are antiquated. the world is changing, and whether by medical procedure, life experience or or birth we have a great many people that don't fall nice and neatly into our prescribed boxes.

my belief is that we, as a society, need to accept people as they are and adjust our notions of privacy, sexuality and tolerance to accomodate the changing nature of our population. frankly, there is no such thing as a 'right' to change amongst only your gender. this is an accepted practice, but by no means a right. what is a right, though, and is constitutionally protected, is that people cannot be discriminated against based on their gender or sexuality. what we should be doing is protecting that right and adjusting our practice, not throwing that right out the window because it makes us uncomfortable.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:48 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with anything you said, 'trane. But I think this case is a simple one. There are only two washrooms (unfortunately, at this establishment - there are loads of places where it would be a non-issue because you can use a "family room"), and the correct one for him (her) to have used at that time was the men's.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:49 AM   #5 (permalink)
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what do you mean by 'correct'?
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:52 AM   #6 (permalink)
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appropriate?
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:55 AM   #7 (permalink)
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But would trans gender man be more offensive to these woman then a lesbian in the same locker room?
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:57 AM   #8 (permalink)
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But would trans gender man be more offensive to these woman then a lesbian in the same locker room?
Depends on who you are dealing with.

For instance, my wife and her friends at the gym wouldn't have a problem with anyone from these different walks of life. They would welcome it.

But there are a lot of people out there who, as 'trane made reference to, just aren't as modern in their outlook.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
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if we weren't so bloody puritanical and ashamed of our bodies in the first place this would be a non-issue.

unfortunately, the problem is that we have no public space for anybody from that community. men, in all of our macho glory, are uncomfortable with gay men, let alone men that live as women, in our change rooms.

women are uncomfortable with anybody that has a package in theirs, even though a transexual such as the one described here probably provides no threat and is just looking for a place where she feels comfortable.

at the end of the day, our conceptions around gender and sexuality are antiquated. the world is changing, and whether by medical procedure, life experience or or birth we have a great many people that don't fall nice and neatly into our prescribed boxes.

my belief is that we, as a society, need to accept people as they are and adjust our notions of privacy, sexuality and tolerance to accomodate the changing nature of our population. frankly, there is no such thing as a 'right' to change amongst only your gender. this is an accepted practice, but by no means a right. what is a right, though, and is constitutionally protected, is that people cannot be discriminated against based on their gender or sexuality. what we should be doing is protecting that right and adjusting our practice, not throwing that right out the window because it makes us uncomfortable.

I agree with everything but IMO before we accept other people for who they are, shouldnt we first accept ourselves for who we are?
I accept 100% that people have the rights to do whatever they want (operations and all), but if you are born as man, shouldnt you accept you are one? Im talking phisically not mentally. 100 operations cant change wether you are man or a woman. Are we so obsessed with our bodies that we need to go under all that stress to feel completed?
South Parks episode ilustrates that very well.

This is not the topic of this thread really, but its something I have always thought about.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:04 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I agree with everything but IMO before we accept other people for who they are, shouldnt we first accept ourselves for who we are?
I accept 100% that people have the rights to do whatever they want (operations and all), but if you are born as man, shouldnt you accept you are one? Im talking phisically not mentally. 100 operations cant change wether you are man or a woman. Are we so obsessed with our bodies that we need to go under all that stress to feel completed?
South Parks episode ilustrates that very well.

This is not the topic of this thread really, but its something I have always thought about.
i'm not going to go around suggesting to other people how they should think of themselves. this is intensely personal. it may be trauma, upbringing, interest, curiosity, frustration, acceptance, longing, derision, hope, belonging, faith, beauty, passion, who knows? whatever the reason, if someone wants to be something who am i to judge? this is my point, our society has antiquated ideas of what is normal. my hope is that we can just accept other people's own self-identification, for whatever reason, rather than insisting that we be the ones to identify them. perhaps what one individual is doing by having this operation or undergoing this life change is precisely accepting themselves as they see themselves to be. imagine the courage it takes to go through this. no one does that if they aren't pretty sure they they need to accept what their body and mind is telling them is best.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:12 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with anything you said, 'trane. But I think this case is a simple one. There are only two washrooms (unfortunately, at this establishment - there are loads of places where it would be a non-issue because you can use a "family room"), and the correct one for him (her) to have used at that time was the men's.
ok, taking 'correct' as 'appropriate'...

i suppose my reaction here is to question 'appropriate' for whom? certainly not the individual in question. look, if i was a transgendered person, formerly a man but now identifying as a woman, i'd sure as hell be more nervous in a room full of men than in a room full of women, who i identify with. and, quite apart from gender and comfort, there's a far greater risk of violence and harm if a 'man in a dress' walks into a changeroom full of jocks. a huge proportion of the trans community has experienced violence and hate in their lives. by and large they are justifiably nervous about repeat incidents. that is probably one of the main reasons she was looking to work out amongst women in the first place.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that i don't really care if someone is uncomfortable around a cock and balls on a woman and i hope they are willing to change before we think about disregarding the constitution. i'm pretty sure the club owner could have erected a curtain or provided a key to the staff washroom or something to accomodate this, but i digress...

i'm not saying he acted in bad faith or that we have a protocol that he should have followed. this is all a natural progression as our society has changed. that's why up until now i have made few comments about this particular situation. the guy was in a bind, and he seems to understand both that bind and the desires of the individual in question. i'm just looking at the bigger picture and commenting on what i hope is taking place in our communities as we gradually move forward.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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i'm sorry but the transexual has no rights in this case.
his brain tells him he is a woman, that is fine, i have no problem with that. but his body says otherwise.
you cannot expect the members of this gym to feel comfortable in the lockeroom, shower area with a man in there with them, regardless if he is a woman inside, he is still a man on the outside.
this is not a black and white issue, there are too many problems that can happen with this. so any man can simply wlak into a woman's dressing room or washroom and say, "its ok, i'm a transexual, go about your business". because thats pretty much what is happening here.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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most ladies would be more understanding then most men and no, i wouldnt feel comfortable with a transsexual changing right beside me, say what you will, that's how im built, i think it's wrong.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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the fact of the matter here is that the gym is now allowing her to become a member because she is now a woman (post-op).
whats the problem? he was considered a man before the operation and they said no. now that he is a woman (after the operation) they dont have a problem with her joining, so why is she making a big fuss?
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:29 AM   #15 (permalink)
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the fact of the matter here is that the gym is now allowing her to become a member because she is now a woman (post-op).
whats the problem? he was considered a man before the operation and they said no. now that he is a woman (after the operation) they dont have a problem with her joining, so why is she making a big fuss?
He never said no to her joining the club, he just said no to her accessing the women only parts of the gym.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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i'm sorry but the transexual has no rights in this case.
i'm sorry, but this is never true. all citizens of our coutry have constitutionally protected rights. the fact that you don't accept them is irrelevant.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:37 AM   #17 (permalink)
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i'm sorry, but this is never true. all citizens of our coutry have constitutionally protected rights. the fact that you don't accept them is irrelevant.
what about the rights of the other women in the gym? what happens to their rights?
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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blah not enuff time to deal with it, gl to this person

Last edited by Ugo Ferst; 03-06-2009 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:38 AM   #19 (permalink)
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what about the rights of the other women in the gym? what happens to their rights?
no one is discriminating against them baseed on tehir gender or sexuality in this situation, besides, your statement wasn't about them, is was that a ceryain other person has no rights.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:40 AM   #20 (permalink)
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He never said no to her joining the club, he just said no to her accessing the women only parts of the gym.
oh, i thought it was a woman's only gym.

but that still doesnt change my opinion.
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