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Old 06-11-2009, 11:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleacherreport
The age of ubiquitous internet connectivity means that any pimply teenager can access a wealth of statistics and records from the comfort of his computer.

Suddenly, internet forumers or bleachers who obviously could not have been born during that era can engage in a intelligent debate over Chamberlain versus Russell or Magic versus Bird, tossing around stats like Wilt's monstrous scoring or Magic's assist.

Thanks to the formidable archives of nba.com and espn.com (especially John Hollinger), literally anyone with internet access can appear more knowledgeable than Charles Barkley. Ok, this is not really that difficult.

There is no denying the allure of statistics, especially on a site like this where impassioned fans do battle to defend the honor of their favorite team or player while attempting to maintain the facade of objective journalism. Here are some of the reasons why statistics are so seductive...
Making Sense of the Obsession with Statistics in the NBA | Bleacher Report
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Good read but it has alot of errors.

Such as you cant tell about defense from statistics?

What about defensive rating, block percentage, steal percentage, opposing per, etc?
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Snooch, I have a friend who is an astro-physicist (sp) and I spoke to her about how objective is statistical information.

Her response: stats in and of themself can tell you nothing. Stats contrary to belief are very much objective in every sense. The only true objective method (and even that was a stretch for her) was utilization of the scientific method to acheive a desired outcome and that uses more that statistical information.

As for telling stats from defense. Yes, it can be helpful to look at those things but they don't determine if you're a good defensive player or not.

Again, playing the right position, cutting lanes off, defending the pick and roll, making opposition shots tougher etc. are all part of defense and are immeasurable on the stat sheet.

Dwight Howard led the league in blocks. Does that make him the best defensive big man? Hardly.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:03 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah, I think a good comparison is in the NFL, where a cornerback with no stats at all could be the best player at that position. If you are good enough, they will never throw at your man.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:31 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I agree with 75% of the opinions being expressed in this thread.

I usually agree with the contributors of that 75% - 85.7% of the time.

Last edited by Acie; 06-12-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Stats are an aid to an argument, not a crutch.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by XiaominWu View Post
Yeah, I think a good comparison is in the NFL, where a cornerback with no stats at all could be the best player at that position. If you are good enough, they will never throw at your man.
just ask Champ Bailey.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
Snooch, I have a friend who is an astro-physicist (sp) and I spoke to her about how objective is statistical information.

Her response: stats in and of themself can tell you nothing. Stats contrary to belief are very much objective in every sense. The only true objective method (and even that was a stretch for her) was utilization of the scientific method to acheive a desired outcome and that uses more that statistical information.

As for telling stats from defense. Yes, it can be helpful to look at those things but they don't determine if you're a good defensive player or not.

Again, playing the right position, cutting lanes off, defending the pick and roll, making opposition shots tougher etc. are all part of defense and are immeasurable on the stat sheet.

Dwight Howard led the league in blocks. Does that make him the best defensive big man? Hardly.
Dwight was defensive player of the year.

Astro Physicists study alot of statics and statistic analysis?

I have many statatitian frends who would argue to the death about her points.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Stats regarding any particular actual game or even performances in seasons past can be interesting, as long as they are not meant to be taken in and of themselves. Stats that attempt to illuminate future performances are just insane. You're either a sports fan or a math fan in my books. Or you can be both I guess, but why insist on thinking there is an irrevocable link between the two passions that is justified, when neither passion on its own is justifiable as a means towards any kind of public good.

You've got slackers and you've got nerds. Put them together and that party sucks kitty litter. I've always been terrified of the illusionary power, and maybe even the real power, that computers put in the hands of crazy people, and yes I include myself. As a young man that's all I could think about: there are millions of crazy people out there - we all know that - and now they are not just out there - they are learning about computers. I never thought the end result would be fantasy leagues.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The problem is.. anyone can anything they want without statistics.

Someone was telling me the other day that Kobe was a better offensive player than Jordan. And despite everything I would say.. he kept saying, "ya but kobe's offence is so smooth... and he doesnt have to work as hard as jordan did".

There's no way for him to prove that.. or me to disprove that. Like someone on this forum (can't remember who) said Bosh is not a great rebounder... but every stat all time goes against that.

Equally bad though, is people that use stats out of context, or fudge them to prove a point lol (like taking a guy who plays 18 mins a game and multiply their stats to PER 48 mins lol).
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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"And the only important stat, if you want to call it that, is the final score. And so I was only interested in winning." - Bill Russell
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:33 PM   #12 (permalink)
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"And the only important stat, if you want to call it that, is the final score. And so I was only interested in winning." - Bill Russell
Every athelete on the planet says that... "All i want to do is win" lol
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:35 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Every athelete on the planet says that... "All i want to do is win" lol
some mean it a little more than others.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Who's won more than Bill Russell?
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Old 06-13-2009, 07:02 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Give me stats as a correlation between past, present and future performance and it almost never will lie.

If the right stats are chosen and worked with amungst themselves it will paint an incredibly accurate picture of what future performances hold.

Bosh stats 2009-with addition of Marion, Delfino and Evans taken into account.

20.7ppg, 8.3rpg, 2apg, 0.6spg, 1.1bpg, 48.9%fg
remember those numbers.
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Old 06-13-2009, 12:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooch View Post
Give me stats as a correlation between past, present and future performance and it almost never will lie.

If the right stats are chosen and worked with amungst themselves it will paint an incredibly accurate picture of what future performances hold.

Bosh stats 2009-with addition of Marion, Delfino and Evans taken into account.

20.7ppg, 8.3rpg, 2apg, 0.6spg, 1.1bpg, 48.9%fg
remember those numbers.
Those stats will never lie...So if you get a sample of 10 years from a player, whos getting between 14-16 points, and 7-8 assists, you're right, he'll most likely get around those numbers in season 11.

But the types of conclusions that you want to tag those numbers on, are still just opinions. No matter how big your sample size is. Ie) correlating those numbers to wins and productivity will always be a stretch, and always be flawed.

If you can tell the future by your statistics, make some money off it. The fact is, the recorded data from a basketball game is pretty small. So much goes on during a basketball game resulting from a player's actions that isn't recorded.

Your data is always flawed, and whatever prediction you get, is still always going to be flawed. Being able to predict flawed information is kind of pointless.
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Old 06-13-2009, 07:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Pointless, unless fantasy leagues mean more to you then the real thing.
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Old 06-13-2009, 08:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So then I guess because Eddie House plays on a winnin gteam he must be real solid player.

You guys argue that as a main piece Bosh averaging 20 and 10 is soooooooo much better than someone like Zbo doing the exact same thing(although I do admit that Bosh character is alot higher)

Stats play an important part in the analysis of players, teams etc. Many coaches/management(ie: Houston is big into it) us stats as a part of their decision making.

The fact that so many here are so quick to dismiss stats as a very important tool in determining player performance it can only lead me to beleive either some people are igorant or they just dont know any better.
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Stats play an important part in the analysis of players, teams etc. Many coaches/management(ie: Houston is big into it) us stats as a part of their decision making.
They`re a tool...

I would say that the reason so many use stats is simply because they`re available. They look at a situation, develop some ideas, and then well, might as well look at the stats since they`re literally seconds away in this day and age.

A very important tool though... I don`t think so. Any GM, coach, owner, can sit back and look at a player play the actual games and make their decision on that and that alone. I`m sure every GM in the league has gone with their gut despite what numbers tell them.

Will statistics draw their attention to a player, sure. Will it impact contract negotiations, of course. But when it comes to actually making the decision to go after a guy or not, it comes down to watching game tape and watching somebody play.
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Old 06-13-2009, 10:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
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35 percent of people are ignorant
35 percent of people don't know any better
and 35 percent of people are just stoopid.
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