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View Poll Results: Should routine infant male circumcision be legal?
Yes 11 44.00%
No 14 56.00%
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:55 PM   #41 (permalink)
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To me, it seems like a choice that parents should make. I understand that entire argument for the "mutilation of genitals", if you even want to call it that. I'd only use such an extreme term for some of the things done to women in Africa and other parts of the world that are clearly wrong.

I say it's a parental decision because up to a certain age, kids don't know what's good or bad for them. I don't want to start using the flu analogy or anything, but parents have undisputed rigihts over their children in their formative lives. Circumsision, vaccines, even the food they use to feed their kids at a young age is going to have some kind of repercussion over the course of time.

I, for example, was circumcised when I came to Canada [jews weren't really that big of a deal where I was born] and clearly had no idea of the concept of the procedure at such a young age. That being said, my parents would never put me in a position where any harm would be done to me...short term or long term. It really depends on the parents IMO.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:24 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I found some official stats AND policy statements from Canadian Pediatric Society. In terms of stats, they publish a pamphlet that they distribute to parents who aren't sure whether or not they want to circumcise their children or not.

Quote:
Circumcision is a “non-therapeutic” procedure, which means it is not medically necessary. Parents who decide to circumcise their newborns often do so for religious, social or cultural reasons. To help make the decision about circumcision, parents should have information about risks and benefits. It is helpful to speak with your baby’s doctor.

After reviewing the scientific evidence for and against circumcision, the CPS does not recommend routine circumcision for newborn boys. Many paediatricians no longer perform circumcisions.

Risks and benefits of circumcision

Problems from the surgery are usually minor. Although serious complications are rare, they do occur. Newborn circumcision has been associated with surgical mistakes, such as having too much skin removed.

Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised:

20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.

•2 to 3 will have a more serious complication that needs more treatment. Examples include having too much skin removed or more serious bleeding.

•2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old.

•About 10 babies may need to have the circumcision done again because of a poor result.
In rare cases, pain relief methods and medicines can cause side effects and complications. You should talk to your baby’s doctor about the possible risks.

Of every 1,000 boys who are not circumcised:

•7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old.


•10 will have a circumcision later in life for medical reasons, such as a condition called phimosis. Phimosis is when the opening of the foreskin is scarred and narrow because of infections in the area that keep coming back. Older children who are circumcised may need a general anesthetic, and may have more complications than newborns.
Circumcision slightly lowers the risk of developing cancer of the penis in later life. However, this form of cancer is very rare. One of every one million men who are circumcised will develop cancer of the penis each year. By comparison, 3 of every one million men who are not circumcised will develop penile cancer each year.

Caring for an uncircumcised penis

The foreskin covers the shaft and head (glans) of a boy’s penis. During the early years of a boy’s life, the foreskin separates from the glans. This is a natural process that occurs over time. You do not need to do anything to make it happen.

When the foreskin separates, it is said to be “retractable,” meaning it can be pulled back.

An uncircumcised penis is easy to keep clean and requires no special care:

•Keep your baby’s penis clean by gently washing the area during his bath. Do not try to pull back the foreskin. Usually, it is not fully retractable until a boy is 3 to 5 years old, or even until after puberty. Never force it.

•When your son is old enough, teach him to keep his penis clean as you’re teaching him how to keep the rest of his body clean.

•When the foreskin separates, skin cells will be shed and new ones will develop to replace them. These dead skin cells will work their way down the penis through the tip of the foreskin and may look like white, cheesy lumps. These are called smegma. If you see them under the skin, you don’t need to force them out. Just wipe them away once they come out.

•When the foreskin is fully retractable, teach your son to wash underneath it each day.
If you decide to have your baby boy circumcised

It is helpful to talk to your baby’s doctor about the issues involved in circumcision:

•Cost: Circumcisions for non-medical reasons are not covered by all provincial and territorial health plans.

•Possible complications, such as the ones described above.
LINK

Okay, let's recap the info so that we can do a proper cost benefit analysis.

Per 1,000 boys circumcised, 20 to 30 will suffer a surgical complication and possible infection. 2-3 more will suffer a more serious complication. So, let's take the middle number, for the sake of fairness and objectivity. We'll say 27 out of 1,000 suffer complications of varying degrees. In addition to that, 2 out of 1,000 will still be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection, which, ironically, is the type of thing the circumcision is supposedly preventing. That's what the old school, uninformed doctors who haven't updated their education will say. That's what a lot of uninformed nurses still peddle as well. They need to get a clue. So, total, we're looking at approx. 27 out of 1,000 circumcisions that result in problems for a baby going through this bullsthit procedure. Another 2 get a problem that the circumcision fails to prevent. Combined that's 2.9%. And, remember, this still isn't even including the 10 per 1,000 who have to have the circumcision redone. If we take those poor bastards into account, then the total is 3.9% who either get harmed or get no benefit whatsoever. There's only a 0.5% reduction in urinary tract infections, and that reduction comes at the risk of 2.7% increased chance that you're going to get and new kind of infection or have accessive bleeding from the surgery, which may or may not cause problems...it's a new additional risk, though.

For those who remain intact and don't get cut, per 1,000, 7 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection. Also, 10 may need to get the surgery later in life. So, 17 out of a 1,000 will had some kind of annoyance that may or may not be attributed to a lack of a circumcision. And I say may not be attributed, since 2 out of 1,000 circumcised kids get a UTI infection anyway. A circumcision doesn't guarantee you won't get a UTI. Good hygiene does. So really, we're talking about an extra 5 out of 1,000 who get the annoyance of a UTI. In total, that's 15 out of a 1,000 who go through the annoyance of a surgery in later in life, or a UTI, which, it must be remembered, can easily be treated with anti-biotics. In total, 1.5 % of non-circumcised kids getting an annoyance.

Do....the... math. ONLY 1.5% chance of a problem if you're NOT circumcised, AND you get to keep your super awesome foreskin with all its nerve endings that help make sex feel better, not to mention the added pleasure during whack off sessions.

If you get circumcised, which, ironically, is supposed to help you, there's a 2.7% increased chance that you'll get another problem.

And I only said 2.7% because I'm talking about the INCREASED chance. 3.7% will get a problem. Either way, 1% is going to have a circumcision that isn't planned. A botched circumcision could lead to an infant needing it re-done, but a lack of circumcision could lead to the same % needing one in adulthood. If you look at the stats, either way, 10 out of 1,000 end up getting an unplanned circumcision. There's a 1% risk, either way.

Oh, and if you're honestly going to make the decreased risk of cancer argument, then you need to think harder about that. 3 out of a million equates to 0.000003%. Not much of a benefit, especially when you consider that you're giving up your foreskin.

The more I learn about this procedure the more irony I see. People who defend this procedure actually think the parents are helping the kids and know what's best for their kids. Wake up, boys and girls. The new generation of younger doctors is using empircal data to call BULLSHIT on the older generation of people who allowed this NON-therepeutic, cultural, historical and social construct to take place.

The Canadian Pediatric Society does not recommend this. When I started this thread I didn't even realize there was an official statement. I knew a lot of younger doctors were against it due to the stats available, but I didn't realize the extent of the consensus against this procedure.

The comparisons to the flu shot and vaccinations are just silly. You guys have it BACKWARDS. Doctors recommend that people get the flu shot, assuming the conditions are appropriate, but they do NOT recommend circumcision; therefore, remaining intact would be more analogous to vaccinations and the flu shot.

Some parents may THINK they know what's best for a kid, but they can also be wrong....very wrong.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 02-05-2010 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Some great info there AC.... thanks bud!

Long live the anteaters!!
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:33 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Okay I have a question. What is the whole reason behind getting circumcision? I never knew
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:36 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Some great info there AC.... thanks bud!

Long live the anteaters!!
Dude, I don't have an "anteater"?

When I was a teenager I was super pumped about that. Back when I played hockey, in the change room, I remember guys making fun of the "anteaters."

Now, after being forced to confront the truth, I want to be an "anteater."
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:42 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Not to create debate or anything... But I also know a few guys who haven't been circumsized and WANT to be. But knowing how painful it would be prevented them from having it done as adults.

They wished their parents had made that decision when they were babies.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:43 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I ask this once again. What is the exact point of being circumsized?
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:45 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I ask this once again. What is the exact point of being circumsized?
at one point in time it was an issue of cleanliness. no running fresh water meant the need to keep things clean. no hood, no 'buildup'.

it became religious practice later.

after that, i don't know.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:46 PM   #49 (permalink)
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So as 'Cuda said, some people she knows want to get circumsized. But why?
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:49 PM   #50 (permalink)
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to make it look bigger?
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:50 PM   #51 (permalink)
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lol that's it. No need for that then
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:52 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Not to create debate or anything... But I also know a few guys who haven't been circumsized and WANT to be. But knowing how painful it would be prevented them from having it done as adults.

They wished their parents had made that decision when they were babies.
Fair enough. That's a point I've heard people raise. I know you're just raising it and not looking for debate, but for the sake of just offering a response for anyone who is on the fence, I'll say something simple. For every one of those guys you can find who want to be chopped, you can find people on the opposite side of the coin who want their foreskin back. So, again, it becomes an issue of options. The people you refer to can still get circumcised if they want, but other people, who were circumcised and still might want to know what sex is like with a foreskin, never have that option, because it's gone....gone for good.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:59 PM   #53 (permalink)
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So as 'Cuda said, some people she knows want to get circumsized. But why?
'Cuda will have to address the motivations of the people she is speaking about. However, I can tell you that other people sometimes do it for aesthetic reasons. That is, they do it for appearance sake. It's a point that was brought up earlier in the thread. American culture in particular has sort of created a fetish out of the circumcised penis. At least that's the argument I've been hearing recently. In the US, the circumcision rates are around 50%. In Canada, things are changing more. Fewer and fewer parents are circumcising their boys. I don't know for sure, but I think it's closer to 20% in Canada. I'd have to double check, though, so don't assume that's correct.
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:51 PM   #54 (permalink)
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at one point in time it was an issue of cleanliness. no running fresh water meant the need to keep things clean. no hood, no 'buildup'.

it became religious practice later.

after that, i don't know.
Actually, I think you have it backwards, but I'll have to confirm that.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:33 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I want to focus on the question of how far a parent's rights over their child extend.

First, the fact that circumcision is currently a widely-accepted social norm has no bearing over whether or not it should be legal. If we frame it as a question of what is most politically expedient, then it is undoubtedly going to make you a bit unpopular to go against social norms. However, I want to distinguish this conversation between descriptive statements (statements of how things are) versus normative or prescriptive statements (statements of how things should be). It is the prescriptive arguments that I think are of interest here.

I also want to distinguish this argument between what an adult wants to do to themselves, and what an adult wants to do to their child. I hold no quarry with an adult that wants to have a circumcision operation on themselves (though I will of course argue over whether it is a rational position to take). What concerns me is parents making an unnecessary and permanent decision on another person's behalf; a decision that cannot ever be reversed.

I am of the opinion that a parent's right to raise their children as they see fit is balanced by the child's right to be an individual with a degree of autonomy that increases as they approach the age of majority. In simpler terms, the parent's right to raise their child is offset by the child's right to receive the least harmful or counter-productive raising.

I'll offer a couple examples where I dissent from the idea that parents have an unchecked right over their children:

- In Alberta, parents were granted the right to pull their children out of school for topics they deemed inappropriate. In this context, we're talking mostly about evolution and sexual education. Here the child is being denied the opportunity just to hear ideas. Parent's would still be free to teach their children what they believe is correct, but the child is not given the opportunity to even hear that their are opposing ideas. Understanding evolution may not be critical to some people (though I think it is critical to understanding ourselves and everything around us), but there is absolutely no doubt that sexual education is of the utmost importance to teens and children. To withhold information from these children is nothing short of irresponsible.

- In Quebec, Christian (mostly Catholic, I believe) parents argued that their children did not need to be exposed to other religious ideas. This is the same problem as I've suggested above. If religion is indeed as important to people's lives as is claimed, then it is utterly non-sensical to prevent the free discussion of all religious ideas. In fact, a parent who will not permit their child to weigh their existing religious faith against other faiths is only proving how unworthy of respect that faith is; it apparently cannot withstand even the mildest scrutiny.

- In Oregon, a child died of complications from a urinary tract infection. The problem was that the parents didn't believe in medicine; faith healing and praying was, in their view, the appropriate solution. I do not think any reasonable person could argue that the parent's right to raise their children as they see fit was worth preserving over the child's right to the type of care that would've saved their life. Thankfully, these parents have been found guilty of criminally negligent homicide.


Part of the question I'm raising is, I'm afraid, the question of religion's role in society. Why is that we are forced to set aside conscientious objection when a person says their reasoning is religious in nature? Indeed, many here have argued that stopping infant circumcision would be equivalent to preventing religious expression, and, while I would be hard-pressed to support individual liberties more than I already do, I fail to see how preserving religious expression is a sufficient condition for permitting harm to be committed to another person.

I think here also of the campaign going on in the UK about labelling children. It is utterly ridiculous to label your child a Christian child, or a Jewish child, or a Muslim child, in the same way it is ridiculous to label your child a Keynesian, a Monetarist, or a Marxist. These are complicated questions and it is completely irresponsible to force your answers upon unsuspecting children who may never recover from the damage done to them by such indoctrination.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:35 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I cant imagine not being circumcised, skin over my piece.... Anyways should up to the parents. It's like vaccinations they're not forced either.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:54 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I cant imagine not being circumcised, skin over my piece.... Anyways should up to the parents. It's like vaccinations they're not forced either.
Why should it be up to the parents and not the child?

It is not remotely similar to vaccination. In the case of vaccination, the child is at greater risk of harm if they don't receive the vaccination than if they did (whereas circumcision is the exact opposite). Also, a person cannot grow up to make their own decision about the vaccinations they had (or could have had) as a child (they can't travel back in time to change what happened), whereas in the case of circumcision they can still have it done if they want to.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:08 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I still have my "hood", and I kind of have mixed feelings about it. I hear that chicks prefer dudes without their foreskin, which kind of makes me feel discouraged. But then again, it also adds to the sexual pleasure (so I've heard ) so I'm kind of happy that my parents decided not to chop my weiner.

Anyway, this thread is getting really awkward...
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:11 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I still have my foreskin, too, but I would never get it removed for someone else's aesthetics. We can push the analogy a bit: would you remove a pinky if it were considered more appealing?
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:52 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I still have my foreskin, too, but I would never get it removed for someone else's aesthetics. We can push the analogy a bit: would you remove a pinky if it were considered more appealing?
Another comparison might be this.....

There are women who feel like they have to get huge fake boobs in order to appeal to men.... and God knows it tends to be pushed by the media at times.... but is that really a mandatory requirement to be considered attractive?

Of course not.

Sure, there are some men who DO prefer that... but it's by no means the norm.

Same with "chopped weiners" I would think.
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