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View Poll Results: which party do you support?
NDP 8 22.86%
Conservatives 7 20.00%
Green 7 20.00%
Bloc 3 8.57%
Liberal 10 28.57%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-03-2011, 01:18 PM   #241 (permalink)
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That was a bang on post LX.

Except for the Green mumbo jumbo at the end
no, it wasn't.

the 1st couple of lines in the 2nd paragraph about jack is a complete misdirection of the point that has been made, for starters.

the disregard towards the liberals that he has shown throught this election shows a significant misunderstanding of the ways in which canadians have been drawn to the centre-left throughout history, especially the last 20 years. and his seeming contempt for the political process (that it is somehow irrelevant and meaningless, or at least that it has produced governments that are as such) just makes me wonder if there is any connection to what actually happens as a result of the the political machinations on a day to day basis. how is it that this will be magically transformed under a tory majority? is it just a celebration that the west gets to push around the east instead of the other way around for a while? awesome. real progress in uniting a country. real change right there.

this looks like a country? by that, does he mean one completely divided along ideological lines? this majority was won with, what, 39% of the vote? and with a split left? if that looks like a country then surely you should say the same about the chretien years that were shaped by exactly the same process. unfortunately he has described that period as 'sucking the relevance out of federal politics'.

the 'point' about selling the store long ago is true for a select few items, but also totally false when you consider the strength of the federal government in terms of things like banking policy that have actually ensured our financial stability through these tough times. not only that, but it completely conflates the issue of democratic record with the grassroots political level. there is undoubtedly a missing grassroots element about the libs, but this has nothing to do with the issue of harper's democratic record, which is precisely a criticism of his parliamentary record. if you want to talk about grassroots, the criticism of harper is his unwillingness to listen to anything outside his grassroots. that's also a profound problem.

there is a lot of good in that post, but it was far from spot on.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:51 PM   #242 (permalink)
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So was Layton supposed to tank just to make sure the Conservatives didn't get their majority? That is not his job. He's supposed to put forward an NDP socialist ideal and that's what he did, and some folks bought it.
It's not Layton's fault the Liberals are incompetent and can't get their house in order.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #243 (permalink)
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I'd say there are a lot less divisions in play. Do they occur along ideological lines - yes. Wonderful. A chance for clarity. It's not like the divisions occur regionally. The West is not set on pushing anyone around. They have been moving along with a very different culture and set of values since the Liberals gave up hopes of representing them decades ago. What the Liberals did was about playing regions off of each other. And as much as I dislike a lot of shit Harper does, I've seen the same impulses from too many Liberal leaders.

Chretien's majorities were similarly produced, but they barely saw any votes at all west of Winnipeg. And then they lost Manitoba and Northern Ontario and Quebec. And they just kept hanging onto a shrinking base while Paul Martin strong-armed movements for democratic change from within. Remember all the celebrity candidates he put into certain special ridings, all of his own accord, and against the wishes of the riding's membership. Incredibly democratic.

Making policy? If Martin had secured a majority the stability we enjoy would have been as shaky as anywhere else. He was more than willing to give in to the banks. And he loved globalism enough to have his own shipping company dump toxins while flying some foreign flag that would allow him to do so. When I see Harper I see Paul Martin version2.0. Now he has to go up against a real opposition party that is from Toronto nonetheless. The political machinations are going to be entirely different. The conservatives are going to be owning everything that happens, including how well the government or parliament works. It really could be so much worse. It's 4 years. Really - try imagining 50.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:05 PM   #244 (permalink)
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So was Layton supposed to tank just to make sure the Conservatives didn't get their majority? That is not his job. He's supposed to put forward an NDP socialist ideal and that's what he did, and some folks bought it.
It's not Layton's fault the Liberals are incompetent and can't get their house in order.
no it's not his job to tank. in no way did i suggest that it was. but if he is committed to the values he has fought for, and he is concerned that a tory majority would put many of those into jeopardy (which i am sure he is), he needed to come out looking for ways not to split the centre left vote. agreements on who to run in what riding are not uncommon when it is in the best interest of two parties to make sure that a 3rd does not get a stranglehold on power. but layton had no interest in that and came out swinging at ignatieff to upset the libs, fracture the left and get as many votes as he could. that's hugely destabilizing to his lifelong mission, and he should know better.

perhaps thinking about ridings that were 3-way races and choosing not to run a candidate everywhere - and this is a problem for the libs as well - would have been an effective strategy. but we never got to find out becasue it was all about power.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:10 PM   #245 (permalink)
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I'd say there are a lot less divisions in play. Do they occur along ideological lines - yes. Wonderful. A chance for clarity. It's not like the divisions occur regionally. The West is not set on pushing anyone around. They have been moving along with a very different culture and set of values since the Liberals gave up hopes of representing them decades ago. What the Liberals did was about playing regions off of each other. And as much as I dislike a lot of shit Harper does, I've seen the same impulses from too many Liberal leaders.

Chretien's majorities were similarly produced, but they barely saw any votes at all west of Winnipeg. And then they lost Manitoba and Northern Ontario and Quebec. And they just kept hanging onto a shrinking base while Paul Martin strong-armed movements for democratic change from within. Remember all the celebrity candidates he put into certain special ridings, all of his own accord, and against the wishes of the riding's membership. Incredibly democratic.

Making policy? If Martin had secured a majority the stability we enjoy would have been as shaky as anywhere else. He was more than willing to give in to the banks. And he loved globalism enough to have his own shipping company dump toxins while flying some foreign flag that would allow him to do so. When I see Harper I see Paul Martin version2.0. Now he has to go up against a real opposition party that is from Toronto nonetheless. The political machinations are going to be entirely different. The conservatives are going to be owning everything that happens, including how well the government or parliament works. It really could be so much worse. It's 4 years. Really - try imagining 50.
there's a lot that i disagree within this. for starters, the ndp are nota toronto party right now./ teh leader lives there and there are a few candidates, but this is very much a quebec prty right now, with a leader born in quebec and a group of mp's that are primarily quebeckers first.

i honestly have no idea whta you mean when you say martin 2.0, since what i have taken from your posts is that you are comfortable witha harper majority. i'm hoping you can explain because this isn't making sense for me.

in terms of giving in to banks, martin, as finance minister, put limits on banks that are what prevented us from running afoul of risk in teh way that american banks did. he was the guy that put this in place. no idea how you think he would have caved in to banks, since he did the exact opposite.

the divisions don't occur regionally? really? i would say that they absolutely do.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:12 PM   #246 (permalink)
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A politician all about power? Shocking concept.
Relying on them to live up to their "ideals" in the best interests of the bigger picture is a bit naive don't you think?
Better if the Liberals stop the infighting and sense of entitlement that's put them off the rails and run a decent campaign.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:24 PM   #247 (permalink)
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A politician all about power? Shocking concept.
Relying on them to live up to their "ideals" in the best interests of the bigger picture is a bit naive don't you think?
Better if the Liberals stop the infighting and sense of entitlement that's put them off the rails and run a decent campaign.
that's what layton has done for his entire career, so i hardly think i am being naive.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:40 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Layton is a politician like any other, a power-hungry opportunist and a hypocrite.
Same as Steve, Mike, Liz, whoever.
The fact is that we sell our votes. Whether it be for an ideal, a particular philosophy/policy or a couple bucks in a tax credit.
Mine went cheap this time around and that sucks.
Buggers are going to go ahead the scrap the gun registry and I won't see a damn bit of difference on my pay cheque.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:53 PM   #249 (permalink)
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if we accept that fact, we tacitly support it. my view is that we place expectations upon them and then we openly and actively criticize when they fail to meet those expectations. that's a lot more comforting and effective than just selling my vote.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:09 PM   #250 (permalink)
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There's no accountability though. Particularly when the alternatives come election time are so piss poor. They don't even have to make campaign promises anymore. I heard nothing definitive from any party this time around just the usual "let's make Canada better etc". Never any mention of how.
What are we holding them to exactly?
It's all about self-gratification and fat pensions for them. That's the reality.
Particularly John Layton, he gets to get his mug in front of the cameras, spitting hyperbole for the next four years with zero pressure or expectations. Exactly what he wanted and probably the best job on the Hill.
I accept that reality, but I don't like or support it. I'll be the first one in line to vote for the party that best represents the ideals I stand for when they come along. In the meantime I won't hold my breath or wait for hell to freeze over.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:36 PM   #251 (permalink)
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i don't agree with these assessments at all:
-that there is no accountability (we are the accountability and it is up to us to hold them to it)
-that there was nothing definitive (there were three very different platforms, and 3 very different directions to take the country - 4 if you include the bq)
-that it's all about self gratification and pensions. harper was on a mission. there is no doubt in my mind that he would sacrifice all of his pension and any personal successes to crush the liberal party. iggy had a fatter pension at harvard, and more accolades with less risk as well. and layton has been a campaigner his whole life, or at least since he got his phd from york. there is tons of pressure on him to make a quality opposition out of a group with 50 or so rookie mp's, most of whom are from a completely new power base. the future of his party depends on how well he performs here. he has an extraordinarily difficult job ahead of him.

you are accepting a reality of your own making. change can only come when the electorate holds the politicians' feet over the fire. and just because large portions of the electorate may not want that responsibility doesn't mean that all of us should abdicate it. as individuals we need to stand up for what we expect and what we deserve. all of this talk of malaise and indifference will only give them the mandate to keep on doing what they are doing. we owe it to ourselves to be active.

Last edited by 'trane; 05-03-2011 at 04:03 PM. Reason: had to fix a typo - acocuntability is just too funny a typo to be taken at all seriously
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:36 PM   #252 (permalink)
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Yes soon, Harper, will shoot the poor, kill all the gay people ban abortions and through everyone in jail who smokes a joint.
Didn't he legalized same-sex marriage?

Aside from that, I think I'll have to flush all my weed. Can we still fight for it?
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:52 PM   #253 (permalink)
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also, dann38, i'm curious if you have ever expressed this dissatisfaction with your mp? have you ever called them, showed up to their offices, appeared at a protest or rally, made your voice heard? i don't mean that disrespectfully. i'm just trying to guage whether or not politicians are even hearing the issues we have with them. my experience is that, for the most part, they are pretty receptive to hearing what we have to say. and if we make a big stink about things they can be really good at making sure they address those things.

in my work we often get interventions by mp's on behalf of constituents that have called to complain about services or resource availability, etc. there is undoubtedly some personal gratification athat comes from them looking good in the public eye, but it is also their job to listen to people and to act. we have to get in their faces if we expect things to be different.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:59 PM   #254 (permalink)
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I am glad there are still people out there who believe the system can be effected.
I'm too cynical I guess.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:02 PM   #255 (permalink)
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In my line of work I see the failures of the system everyday and try to just count the small victories. My MP is a jackass who exemplifies the arguments I've made. I felt like having a shower after casting my ballot for him.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:38 PM   #256 (permalink)
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there's a lot that i disagree within this. for starters, the ndp are nota toronto party right now./ teh leader lives there and there are a few candidates, but this is very much a quebec prty right now, with a leader born in quebec and a group of mp's that are primarily quebeckers first.

i honestly have no idea whta you mean when you say martin 2.0, since what i have taken from your posts is that you are comfortable witha harper majority. i'm hoping you can explain because this isn't making sense for me.

in terms of giving in to banks, martin, as finance minister, put limits on banks that are what prevented us from running afoul of risk in teh way that american banks did. he was the guy that put this in place. no idea how you think he would have caved in to banks, since he did the exact opposite.

the divisions don't occur regionally? really? i would say that they absolutely do.
So you're going to make the NDP out to be a regional party. Sorry - but they have support right across the country. And yes - the leader being from Toronto is significant. I didn't say they were a Toronto party. We'll see if they deliver more than the Liberals ever have - which wouldn't take a lot.

Martin2.0 is what Harper has been as a minority leader. Spending big and without much of a real agenda, and working to frame his opponents as unbelievably scary prospects. Don't forget that Harper was framed in much the same way for years by the Liberals as he has done to them since. Martin failed to live up to promises regarding foreign aid and climate change, and made things like daycare his big issues while pointing to his handling of the economy as being the main reason he should be re-elected.

You suggest that I am comfortable with a Harper majority. I don't think I put it like that, nor would I. But I am comfortable with voters across the country (excluding Quebec) deciding to see what happens with him for four years, while a strong opposition party that represents every province aside from Newfoundland and Saskatchewan (where they still had very competitive races) hopefully does more than the gauging of interest in another election we've had from all the opposition parties for a little too long now. For me it's the best of a generally bad situation.

I'm very comfortable with the idea of Quebec and the West no longer being sidelined. I think that was going to become toxic at some point, if it hadn't already. When the idea of the original coalition takeover happened, there was a sense that something close to a civil war could break out. Even though it was legitimate for the opposition parties to do so, it would have also been another example of of voters in the west being entirely discounted. I have no problem with them having a sense that their votes count for four years. They are not as monolithic as they once were, and with a sense of ownership in the government replacing feelings of being under siege, there could be some real shifts. A change of perspective is not a terrible thing.

As for Martin putting limits on the banks - didn't happen. He put it under review, and all indications were that he would have given them the green light had he enjoyed a majority when the review was completed. I posted an article from the globe and mail outlining all of that very early on in this thread.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:04 PM   #257 (permalink)
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I'm fucking crushed about the conservative majority.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:04 PM   #258 (permalink)
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i blame the ndp. their rise is a result of the bq collapse, not their own campaign success.
Can you clarify this for me. They added a bunch of seats outside of Quebec, as well. Didn't the NDP add around 40 from Quebec and 30 new seats from outside Quebec? So, are you saying that the NDP would not have gained those other 30 seats without voters also knowing that they were likely to kick ass in Quebec? Just curious.

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the fact that layton didn't see the danger that a harper majority would pose to everything he has fought for over the last 15-20 years is astonishing,
I think NDP might have seen it. Some view this as a war, not a battle. It's about a much bigger, longer term vision. They want to be a governing party and believe they can do it, regardless of how realistic you think that is.

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and the fact that he didn't work to minimize that by being strategic about vote splitting is a disaster for all those things hE has always held near and dear. i've voted for his party before, and it will be a long time before i vote for his party again.
Okay, when was this supposed to happen? Was Layton supposed to work out an agreement with Iggy before the campaigns started? To be honest, I didn't read every last article written in the newspapers leading up to, and during, the election. So I don't know if Iggy was on board and Jack rejected him and you're referring to some concrete offer. Did Iggy ever express a willingness to participate in strategic running of candidates? Why is the blame on Layton?
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:28 PM   #259 (permalink)
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Can you clarify this for me. They added a bunch of seats outside of Quebec, as well. Didn't the NDP add around 40 from Quebec and 30 new seats from outside Quebec? So, are you saying that the NDP would not have gained those other 30 seats without voters also knowing that they were likely to kick ass in Quebec? Just curious.
i think the surge in quebec created a lot of momentum towards an overall surge in support across the country, but i don't mean to suggest that it is entirely due to what happened in quebec. a qualifier like 'to a large extent' was certainly needed there.


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I think NDP might have seen it. Some view this as a war, not a battle. It's about a much bigger, longer term vision. They want to be a governing party and believe they can do it, regardless of how realistic you think that is.
he must be thinking something deep long term, because as long as the libs and ndp battle each other we will see a lot of blue in canadian electoral maps. i don't see any way around that. he might be able to achieve being the long term official opposition, but i don't see how he can vote split his way to 24 sussex.

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Okay, when was this supposed to happen? Was Layton supposed to work out an agreement with Iggy before the campaigns started? To be honest, I didn't read every last article written in the newspapers leading up to, and during, the election. So I don't know if Iggy was on board and Jack rejected him and you're referring to some concrete offer. Did Iggy ever express a willingness to participate in strategic running of candidates? Why is the blame on Layton?
ignatieff deserves much criticism for not working towards this, but my concern with layton is that it betrays the sort of principled commitment to values that he has always, in my view, stood behind. to be honest, and this is part of it, i'm not surprised that the liberal party didn't think they would get so badly beaten, but i am surprised that layton wasn't more concerned with the spectre of a tory majority than with snagging liberal votes. and more than surprised, i'm hugely disappointed in him because this kind of commitment is why i have voted ndp many times before. maybe he did make closed door overtures, and obviously i can't know about that. i am certainly making the assumption that he did not, considering the way layton's campaign unfolded.

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Old 05-04-2011, 11:54 PM   #260 (permalink)
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So you're going to make the NDP out to be a regional party. Sorry - but they have support right across the country. And yes - the leader being from Toronto is significant. I didn't say they were a Toronto party. We'll see if they deliver more than the Liberals ever have - which wouldn't take a lot.
i overstated my point, so i concede that.

i don't mean that the ndp is strictly a regional party, but it does have 50+ seats in quebec, and that number of mp's is going to significantly shift the weight of the party to a place it has never been before. and they owe a great deal of support (and some kind of campaign promise commitment) to disaffected bq supporters, so that will mean a definitive shift in policy approach.

also, i really think quebeckers that voted ndp really see layton as a guy with roots in the province. he's not considered a 'torontonian' that they would have mistrust of in that way.

in the end, if we're talking about a 'party from toronto', we're talking about a kind that has never existed before.


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Martin2.0 is what Harper has been as a minority leader. Spending big and without much of a real agenda, and working to frame his opponents as unbelievably scary prospects. Don't forget that Harper was framed in much the same way for years by the Liberals as he has done to them since. Martin failed to live up to promises regarding foreign aid and climate change, and made things like daycare his big issues while pointing to his handling of the economy as being the main reason he should be re-elected.
ok, that makes sense. thanks for clarifying.

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You suggest that I am comfortable with a Harper majority. I don't think I put it like that, nor would I. But I am comfortable with voters across the country (excluding Quebec) deciding to see what happens with him for four years, while a strong opposition party that represents every province aside from Newfoundland and Saskatchewan (where they still had very competitive races) hopefully does more than the gauging of interest in another election we've had from all the opposition parties for a little too long now. For me it's the best of a generally bad situation.
apologies if i misrepresented your position. i suppose i considered the two positions - comfort with a tory majority and comfort with the genesis of the national result - to be the same thing.

i don't see how a rookie minority opposition facing off against a two-time incumbent with a finely tuned political machine who has finally achieved a much sought-after majority is a good situation. that is, of course, based on my opposition to the tory platform and my fear of them with this much power. if i were a tory supporter this would be just fine with me, but then i wouldn't really care about most of this conversation anyways.

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I'm very comfortable with the idea of Quebec and the West no longer being sidelined. I think that was going to become toxic at some point, if it hadn't already. When the idea of the original coalition takeover happened, there was a sense that something close to a civil war could break out. Even though it was legitimate for the opposition parties to do so, it would have also been another example of of voters in the west being entirely discounted. I have no problem with them having a sense that their votes count for four years. They are not as monolithic as they once were, and with a sense of ownership in the government replacing feelings of being under siege, there could be some real shifts. A change of perspective is not a terrible thing.
i really don't think that it's about east (or ontario) vs west anymore. the tory social agenda appears to be softened from it's reform roots and ontarians are more willing to take that risk if it improves their bottom lines. i think that's a lot of what you seem to be saying - more of a national consensus (although not a huge percentage of the vote, which is important if the case is to be made that this is somehow national). i certainly don't mind 'the west' (and i'd agree that this is by no means monolithic) and quebec are given a voice. my opposition isn't towards them as individuals or as geographic entities, it's about policy. i am frightened by the prospects of what will be cut in the name of tax cuts, and i am frightened about the commitment this government will have to critical programs and, more importantly, to transfer payments when we have tories at all levels (which i suspect ontario will when hudak cruises through dalton m in the fall).

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As for Martin putting limits on the banks - didn't happen. He put it under review, and all indications were that he would have given them the green light had he enjoyed a majority when the review was completed. I posted an article from the globe and mail outlining all of that very early on in this thread.
i will reread that article, and i did forget about it. - edit - can you help me find it? i just went through this thread and the only g&m article i saw you post was this one:
RF Election!

i'm assuming i just missed it, but i'd like to read it if you can help me find it.

Last edited by 'trane; 05-05-2011 at 12:11 AM.
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