RF Election! - Page 12

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View Poll Results: which party do you support?
NDP 8 22.86%
Conservatives 7 20.00%
Green 7 20.00%
Bloc 3 8.57%
Liberal 10 28.57%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-03-2011, 12:30 PM   #221 (permalink)
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I would argue that the reason many may find him as an arrogant elitist is precisely because of the attack ads which seemed to have been running since heaven knows when.
exactly
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:32 PM   #222 (permalink)
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what do you mean by an arrogant elitist? is that not a characteristic of all politicians? does harper somehow come off as not arrogant? or not elitist? do you get the impression that harper is out there championing the everyman?

and is harper not the quintessential smarmy stuffy guy? isn't that the primary criticism of his communications strategy?

why did this stuff stick to ignatieff and not harper?
First off i wasn't talking about Harper who i agree comes off as an arrogant ass, but isn't ignatieff not a life long politician, an academic? I didn't like any of these guys, and as usual don't trust what any of them say.

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Old 05-03-2011, 12:33 PM   #223 (permalink)
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I would argue that the reason many may find him as an arrogant elitist is precisely because of the attack ads which seemed to have been running since heaven knows when.
They all had attack adds against them.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:37 PM   #224 (permalink)
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I guess Ignatieff already knew he was going to lose. His pussy-ness of not countering those negative ads against him was his abject resignation and just waiting for the ax to fall.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:40 PM   #225 (permalink)
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They all had attack adds against them.
The tories seemed to have them running far earlier than the ndp though.

Ignatieff was the best choice out of the 4, however, by the time they were to begin campagining he was already beaten and considered anti-Canadian.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:42 PM   #226 (permalink)
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i think Ingatieff was and is a really smart guy. Just not very good at delivering his message, nor was he a particularilly charismatic man. The things he said were the 'right things,' but it almost didn't matter.

it is strange how badly he got his ass kicked.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:42 PM   #227 (permalink)
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As a Liberal, the things Ignatieff was saying were most in line with how I think, but there were a few times where he really came off as, I don't want to say a prick, but he could be condescending in interviews (the quick, on-the-way-to-the-bus interviews.) I saw him roll his eyes a few times. People don't like that. And those people probably didn't care if Harper was the same way or worse or whatever.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:43 PM   #228 (permalink)
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I guess Ignatieff already knew he was going to lose. His pussy-ness of not countering those negative ads against him was his abject resignation and just waiting for the ax to fall.
It wasn't a lack of 'pussy-ness' as you eloquently put. It was a lack of funds AND an audience willing to listen (can't forget you need someone listening).
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:46 PM   #229 (permalink)
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As a Liberal, the things Ignatieff was saying were most in line with how I think, but there were a few times where he really came off as, I don't want to say a prick, but he could be condescending in interviews (the quick, on-the-way-to-the-bus interviews.) I saw him roll his eyes a few times. People don't like that. And those people probably didn't care if Harper was the same way or worse or whatever.
And this goes for fancy as well, could alot of that be attributed to already having a perception of the man before you heard or saw him speak? Was it turly viewing him from an objective standpoint?
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:49 PM   #230 (permalink)
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Ignatieff was hurt because people are generally distrustful of intellectuals and because he is relatively new to Canadian politics. These were the same problems raised by Rae during the Liberal leadership battle. The fact that the Liberals and Ignatieff failed to counter this impression speaks to some real incompetency among the Liberal strategists.


My long-term concern is about what the future holds. We are looking at a minimum of 4 years of Conservative reign, and I think it will last longer than that. I doubt very seriously that the NDP will have enough support to be a majority at any point in my life time. It might take the Liberal party a decade to really rebuild. There is no one with any real power to advance leftist causes, and with a majority government the Conservatives have no reason to cater to other ideologies.

To be truthful, I had hoped for another minority government, no matter who it would be. My hope was that this would help force some voter reform (and not just re-districting). Alas, we will be stuck in the status-quo for a while, I think.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:51 PM   #231 (permalink)
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And this goes for fancy as well, could alot of that be attributed to already having a perception of the man before you heard or saw him speak? Was it turly viewing him from an objective standpoint?
It didn't bother me. I understand some people come off a certain way - they don't mean it - and I can guarantee there were talks within the party and with him about how he was coming across. At times, his behaviour seemed forced, like he was trying to fix something about himself.

I liked him, liked what he had to say. Just playing devil's advocate. Character means so much in politics. We can hee and haw about how it shouldn't matter so much, but that's the way it is.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:57 PM   #232 (permalink)
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The tories seemed to have them running far earlier than the ndp though.

Ignatieff was the best choice out of the 4, however, by the time they were to begin campagining he was already beaten and considered anti-Canadian.
the tories have been running attack ads agianst ignatieff since he ran for liberal leadership in 2006 and 2008. they branded him before he ever had a chance to brand himself.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:01 PM   #233 (permalink)
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And this goes for fancy as well, could alot of that be attributed to already having a perception of the man before you heard or saw him speak? Was it turly viewing him from an objective standpoint?
I meant that i didn't think Ignatieff was a bad candidate. As i said, he did say the right things.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:03 PM   #234 (permalink)
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nor was he a particularilly charismatic man.
Another big issue, which is important to most imo. And really that's not an issue that only he has a problem with. They're all pretty uncharismatic and have problems with being the slightest bit inspiring and have very little talent in getting people energized to get get involved in the political process. Essentially, they put people to sleep. Add to that, Ignatieff is new to Canadian politics and it's easy to see why he fell way short.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:06 PM   #235 (permalink)
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Another big issue, which is important to most imo. And really that's not an issue that only he has a problem with. They're all pretty uncharismatic and have problems with being the slightest bit inspiring and have very little talent in getting people energized to get get involved in the political process. Essentially, they put people to sleep. Add to that, Ignatieff is new to Canadian politics and it's easy to see why he fell way short.
i don't think that's a big issue at all. Obviously i am in the minority.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:19 PM   #236 (permalink)
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The liberal party in general has been filled with lifers. And they gave Iggy a new red book, and some corny red shoes to go with it, and when that didn't work they trotted out Chretien again. It simply wasn't about the leader, although he was hardly inspiring, did not appear at all to have bought into the market tested non-ideas he was asked to push on a personal level, and was chosen with shrugs as a guy that might be able to sell the mish-mash of policies that were all about maintaining an ever diminishing base. No - it was about the party and that ever diminishing base.

Oh dear - Jack Layton didn't play fair and allow the Libs to simply write them off? And Iggy couldn't survive a few digs from the NDP? How sad is that? Both Ignatieff and Duceppe literally told him to shut up, because he doesn't matter and he should be honest enough to realize as much, and they paid the price for that in a big way. The Liberals continued that strategy right to the end, insisting that the NDP was not a choice that could even be considered. If anyone is responsible for the Tory majority, it's the centrist Liberals in Ontario that bought the hullabaloo that the NDP would just be wreckless. Somehow virtually the same platform was acceptable under the red flag if it could deny the West from asserting themselves yet again, but if the NDP was going to be doing the denying, then they were going to go with the guys in blue.

I'm quite happy in that this actually looks like a country, and that there is a chance that all of the relevance that the Liberals sucked out of federal politics over the last 20 years might return, and that we can see a clear choice between two real alternatives. The NDP has a chance of getting as much of their agenda in play as the old Reform party did, which was substantial (to the point that it really has defined the Liberal party as much as anything else since then). Quebec is not left on the sidelines, and the West finally gets true representation, with both the Tories and NDP, for the first time in my lifetime (and I'm fucking old). No more of a Liberal party that lost the West decades ago, hanging onto it's ever-shrinking base and familiar, infighting, lifer politicos, and leaving everyone west of Thunder Bay discouraged.

I see that there is a sense of real dismay at these results, but they came from across the country. The Conservatives were not shut out of the cities, and the NDP proved to be the only party that resonated from coast to coast (the Liberals did not even come close, and really haven't for a long time now). And if you're really upset about the electoral system offering a poor reflection of the values of Toronto, consider what people in Alberta have felt for just about every election going on 50 fucking years. When Joe finally broke in, he got spit out by the Ontario electorate before he could even manage to jut out that little puny chin, let alone develop the fine lines of his double chin. When the real chin got in, he promptly dropped a sales tax on their ass and took the West for granted much in the same way the Liberals too Toronto for granted (and he paid the price relatively immediately). Outside of those unsatisfying moments, it has always been Alberta feeling like their votes don't count, and that just doesn't seem all that sustainable.

The Liberals gave away the store long ago. Chretien and Martin transferred costs to the provinces, and then little by little transferred power to the provinces. They were left with pablum that I find hard to believe represented the wishes of anyone when the policies were taken altogether. They tried to be a little bit of something for as many as possible, while not being able to pull any specifics out of the Family Pack to sell as defining elements. They complained of Harper's poor democratic record, while having nothing to show for themselves at a grassroots level. Now we have a chance to see two options playing out - a party that aims to bring some relevance back to federal politics through practical measures that are not anchored in the past, and a party that offers the idea of stability through smaller government. We'll see which side remains true to the ideals they put forth, and what gets done or not done in the interim, without the divisions of the country, or the threat of another election, getting in the way or getting used as an excuse.

And the Liberals? I guess if they don't want to see a Harper majority next time around, they'll stop stealing from the NDP while slagging them them as being wreckless and a choice only for fools, with absolutely no chance of ever coming to power? I guess they'll humbly admit that they have created the morass of irrelevance that surrounds them and instead campaign indirectly for the Orange Crush, except in those crazy backwater ridings filled with old holdovers from a bygone era? I'd be just as happy if they went away altogether and allowed the Greens to become our third party.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:30 PM   #237 (permalink)
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we're fucked. i'm just glad i'm not poor.
Or a gay, pot smoker in need of an abortion...
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:56 PM   #238 (permalink)
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That was a bang on post LX.

Except for the Green mumbo jumbo at the end
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:59 PM   #239 (permalink)
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Or a gay, pot smoker in need of an abortion...
Yes soon, Harper, will shoot the poor, kill all the gay people ban abortions and through everyone in jail who smokes a joint.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:01 PM   #240 (permalink)
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Can't believe Im typing this...




That was a bang on post LX.
Thank you. In return, I expect an expression of hopes that the Conservatives will recognize the benefits of a green economy. It would be a pretty smart move on their part. They'd see Chretien-like majorities.
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