Raising a Genderless Child? - Page 3
Old 05-26-2011, 09:18 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:24 PM   #42 (permalink)
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you lost me at putting intellectual in quotes and following that with mumbo jumbo.
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Old 05-26-2011, 10:21 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Your argument was pretty weak, if I were you I would of taken the easy out as well.
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Old 05-26-2011, 10:49 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Dr. Gail Knudson, a University of British Columbia psychiatrist who also works with transgendered patients, said she believes the science suggests that gender identity is largely biological, and fixed by the ages of 3-5.

Knudson said it is impossible to predict the outcome of the Toronto couple's experiment but said she could think of some possible, unintended negative consequences. Keeping the gender secret could make it seem to the child like it is something shameful, or actually create gender confusion for her, rather than neutrality, said the physician.
Toronto parents hide child's gender in bid for neutral treatment
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
Your argument was pretty weak, if I were you I would of taken the easy out as well.
i chose not to push it further because i figured there was no need to continue to explain my point. clearly there is.

while a child may not be aware of their gender until they are over 2 years old, there is little doubt that they absorb information and influence during those formative first 2 years. the point is only that the parents want to raise their child in a way that they think avoids some of that influence. i don't see this as being wrong. especially if it is just about publicizing that gender, and they continue to have open discussions in the home. this isn't about leaving information from the child, it is about choosing not to make public something that they have every right to keep private because they are concerned about the messages that people might send when they know that info.

as a particular example, my neighbours and relatives call my daughter 'princess' and shower her with pink clothes and flowery pinwheels while my nephew (3 months younger) is encouraged by the same people do play sports, to be rough and tumble, to play with trucks in the sandbox and to build towers with megablocks. this is the influence they have, and our immediate families have tried to mitigate that by encouraging the kids to participate in all of those types of activities, regardless of which gender they are. this is the way we chose to handle it, but i see why these parents chose to try to eliminate that influence altogether. they don't want that traditional approach to be the way they raise their child. this is not to say that the influence they get in those first 2 years will determine, with no chance of being altered, the course that the rest of their life will take. it is only to say that every parent has a right to educate their child in a way that gives them the influences that are consistent with the values of that family (at least as far as those values are not specifically harmful to that child. i can hardly see opgt or some child welfare body taking exception to the 'harm' these parents might be causing by not telling their neighbours or extended family what is between their legs).

i am quite surprised that you have chosen to make such a judgement on their relationship to their extended family without having any idea what that relationship is.

it seems to me that you are opposing this because it does not fit with your conception of what is normal or perhaps traditional. whether or not a child is going to understand the gender issue doesn't preclude a parent from choosing their own level of privacy.

if you see this as so wrong, what is really the harm that is being done? is it just a family dynamic issue? and if so, how can you be so judgemental regarding a family about whom you know so little?

and to the article that aar posted - the point is not that the gender is shameful it is that it is irrelevant. this leads to the bigger question of the education they are getting at home, which i acknowledged concerns about from the outset. i think it is important to remember that no one is saying the kid can't demonstrate whatever (s)he wants to demonstrate. they are just saying that at 4 months of age they are not going to do it for him. there's a big difference there.

Last edited by 'trane; 05-27-2011 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 05-27-2011, 12:17 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I don't understand why you're so surprised I'm making a judgement on their extended family.

If the extended family was close and the parents wanted them to have relationship with the child, they would share something as trivial as the sex of the child since since their would be some level of trust with these people. Again, relatives simply knowing the sex of the child won't influence the way this child associates with gender roles.

Their is a trust issue with their relations if they can't make a small concession such as divulging the sex of their child.

The psychologist has the same line of thought as myself, that hiding the sex of the child can have negative consequences, a point you kind of agree with but also dismissed multiple times when I brought it up earlier.

And about it being made "public", I think I've made it quite clear that my issue is with the sex not being divulged to family who feels like they should know the sex of the child. I don't consider sharing information with my family the same as sharing information with Raptorsforum.

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Old 05-27-2011, 12:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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the gender is not trivial to this family. that is abundantly clear. and also the idea of divulging the sex of the child is not a small concession to them, it is a critical one. why should they not get to decide what values they want to instill?

perhaps the extended family is not close. perhaps the extended family made it clear that they 'can't wait to have a granddaughter so they can treat her like the princess they wished to be'. perhaps they don't want the grandparents to be close because of a problem in their own childhood. perhaps all kinds of stuff that we don't know. that's why i'm surprised at how quick you are to judge. we just know nothing about this, so we have no basis on which to judge it.

i don't know what you mean by agreeing with that point and also dismissing it multiple times. if i did, can you point it out so i can correct myself or admit that i was wrong?

at the end of the day, why should any immediate family not have the right to privacy around the values that they want to hold? if there is a constitutional or legal issue around harm being done to the child that is one thing, but as i mentioned earlier, i would be quite surprised if any legal entity thaought this was child abuse in any way, shape or form. this is simply a choice about values by a family concerned with the kinds of messages their young child will get in their formative years, and they have made a choice about how they want that child raised. that it is different is no reason to opose it.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:44 AM   #48 (permalink)
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'Genderless' baby's mother responds to media frenzy - thestar.com
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:09 AM   #49 (permalink)
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tremendous response
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:08 PM   #50 (permalink)
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here are the parents discussing all this today on CBC radio

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Old 06-06-2011, 06:31 PM   #51 (permalink)
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And to protect our children from the frenzy that we did not anticipate, we have declined over 100 requests for interviews from all over the world, including all-expenses paid trips to New York City to tell our story on American morning television. We have learning to do, parks to visit and butterflies to care for

Did they run out of parks to visit?
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Old 06-06-2011, 06:35 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
Did they run out of parks to visit?
I wondered that at first. But radio is the right medium to explain their position, correct misconceptions, and not be subject to too much invasiveness. That's probably a better option to letting this thing take on a life of it's own.
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