Prime Minister Stephane Dion - Page 3
Old 12-09-2008, 11:09 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I believe parties should be funded by thier members. Would give alot more money for other things. Just how I feel...less government is better government.


and I agree totally with your final sentance.
I don't disagree. I just think that there's a time and place for it. All know that the Conservative party has some of the richest members in its ranks. Why not introduce a measure to cap how much can be raised thereby levelling the playing field? In all this talk of democracy, these issues sometimes just skirt by.

Less government is ok when it is needed and all is going well. Right now, not all is going well but again that's a philosophical issue.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:19 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I believe parties should be funded by thier members. Would give alot more money for other things. Just how I feel...less government is better government.
so how do you deal with a party that advocates on behalf of the poor and underprivileged? should someone with a disability have to give up part of their odsp income to support the ndp?

your take on this enormously favours those parties that cater to the rich.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:36 PM   #43 (permalink)
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so how do you deal with a party that advocates on behalf of the poor and underprivileged? should someone with a disability have to give up part of their odsp income to support the ndp?

your take on this enormously favours those parties that cater to the rich.
Fair question.

I will digress for a momment and suggest that the NDP fights for noone but its own need for power. Thowing money at things does not solve problems, it enables them.

Do I have a scoial responisbility to pay for the Bloc? Overtaxation is never a good thing. The NDP has money and can raise money, we both know it. Hell they got by with like 9 seats a few years ago. I want the government out of my pocket.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:33 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Fair question.

I will digress for a momment and suggest that the NDP fights for noone but its own need for power. Thowing money at things does not solve problems, it enables them.
This is an unreasonable digression that could be said more appropriately for the tories than for the ndp. if anyone is fighting for power it's our buddy steve. the ndp is the only party out there that does anything for the underprivileged in our country. layton may be a douchebag, and i don't disagree with that, but a voice on canada's left is crucial in our country and the ndp is the only one that provides that. that's just simply not going to be funded by the private sector, which is why we need public funding of political parties. we're not simply throwing money at it, we're enabling our democracy to function in a balanced way. it may need to be run better, and again, i don't disagree, but the prinicple is crucial or we will end up with money=power, which is fundamentally undemocratic.

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Do I have a scoial responisbility to pay for the Bloc? Overtaxation is never a good thing. The NDP has money and can raise money, we both know it. Hell they got by with like 9 seats a few years ago. I want the government out of my pocket.
you have a social reponsibility to enable the democratic process in whatever form that takes. you are not giving money to seperatists, you are supporting the democracy that underlies their right to a political voice. they were legitimately elected in our constitutional system, and you are a part of that system. that's how our country works.

overtaxation? considering how little a draw on your pocket this particular use of taxation is, it hardly seems relevant.

again, money should not equal power. the ndp cannot raise moeny like the grits and tories can raise money. it simply does not represent the rich or canada's business leaders. public financing of political parties is a crucial balancing element in a society that values all of its voices but must deal with the inequities of liberal capitalism. to undermine that, as stevie tried to do, is a power grab, and an unjust one at that, thinly veiled behind a flimsy tax-related justification that simply doesn't hold water.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:41 PM   #45 (permalink)
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And the coalition isn't a power grab engineered by Jack "I make more than 200k a year and live in public housing" Layton? What "little" money is taken out of my pocket?

Quote:
Our Tax System Explained: "Bar Stool Economics"

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten
comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go
something like this:

The first four men (The poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all
such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily
beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the
first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.

But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they
divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They
realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from
everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up
being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be
fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded
to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to
drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare
their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to
the tenth man," but he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth
man. "I only saved a dollar, too It's unfair that he got ten times more than
I!" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back
when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute,"
yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The
system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down
and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they
discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of
them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how
our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most
benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being
wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start
drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:46 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Benzo, do you not see that fault in that though? The highest wages should pay the most etc. My g/f makes a decent salary but understands that if she wants certain priveleges and others to have those priveleges than it's her duty as a person to pay.

Greed is a powerful tool and sometimes it clouds us on our better judgement.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:55 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Benzo, do you not see that fault in that though? The highest wages should pay the most etc. My g/f makes a decent salary but understands that if she wants certain priveleges and others to have those priveleges than it's her duty as a person to pay.

Greed is a powerful tool and sometimes it clouds us on our better judgement.
Agreed.

There is just a bigger picture out there. Socialism....etc...Marxism,....all work in theory. Not in practice.

I am for a complete overhaul of social programs...there is too much waste and to much burocracy....In most cases the money doesn't trickle down to those who need it most.

I find this quote from Lincoln helpful.

Quote:
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.

You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.

You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.

You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.

You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

--Abraham Lincoln
Thos who can't do for themselves should have the full support of the government and its people....the government should however NOT be funding special intrests...we should not be funding muslim or jewish schools...which we do. If the popuation of a not critical program, can not support itself from its members it should cease to exist. I understand the need for "cultural" and "art" programs....most of those cater to the rich anyway, and if people want to go to the ballet ot the opera they should support it not me.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:02 PM   #48 (permalink)
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And the coalition isn't a power grab engineered by Jack "I make more than 200k a year and live in public housing" Layton? What "little" money is taken out of my pocket?
not, it's definitely and completely not. it was our democracy in action, and stevie tried the same thing when the libs were in power. this tory government is trying to act like it has a majority, and the true majority threw it back in their faces. i'm proud to have seen it happen, and i would have been if the parties were reversed. this was our legislature finally showing some balls. this truly is what an active and healthy democracy looks like.

take layton on as much as you want, he's a douche (and i called the ndp to tell them that with the news that i was not voting ndp for the first time in nearly 15 years). that's a red herring to this argument.

that 'tax analysis' you posted is getting a little stale. it's not about going for beers. if our rich folk want to move to the us, go ahead. they won't find too many other safe tax havens where they can still exploit canada's social welfare system and natural resources. they're here because they love this country, and this country has laws they need to follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socrates (to crito)
"Do you imagine that a city can continue to exist and not be turned upside down, if the legal judgments which are pronounced in it have no force but are nullified and destroyed by private persons?"

"If one has the ability to choose whether to obey a law, then he is destroying the power of the law. Destroying law is unjust, for men require a community and a community requires law."

"If you cannot persuade your country you must do whatever it orders, and patiently submit to any punishment that it imposes."
complain and advocate about taxation all you want, but do it within our democratic system. if you don't want our taxation levels, you are welcome to leave and pay for your private health care and private roads somewhere else. so speaketh socrates through plato.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:09 PM   #49 (permalink)
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For the record, I hated when Harper did it as well. As this "colalition" is withen its legal rights to do what it is doing, it should be forced to take it back to the people for an election if they do. I know many Liberals that have lost their mind over this, and I believe you would see your Harper (whom I am not a huge fan of ) majority.

Tax me...I get it....just stop wasting my money on programs that don't work and never have.

Your right its not about going for beers....something much more important, however if you continue to take in that way you will create a society of mediocrity....I got a raise....and I make less money....you figure it out.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:13 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Agreed.

There is just a bigger picture out there. Socialism....etc...Marxism,....all work in theory. Not in practice.
strike one. see sweden. i submit that you don't understand marx or socialism.

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I am for a complete overhaul of social programs...there is too much waste and to much burocracy....In most cases the money doesn't trickle down to those who need it most.
again i will turn to disability. my program is paid for by the government. our clients are unable to work. how will they get the supports they need to live as people in our society without a government-funded program? to address lincoln's argument, some people simply can't do things for themselves. this is what social responsibility is for.

trickle down economics doesn't work. you're absolutely right about that. this is why we need to inject money directly to those that need it. social propgrams like mine and like the public financing of political parties do exactly that. without it, the voices of the marginalised are silenced.

One last quote from the crito:

Quote:
Originally Posted by socrates
"the sound of their arguments rings so loudly in my head that I cannot hear the other side."
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:19 PM   #51 (permalink)
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strike one. see sweden. i submit that you don't understand marx or socialism.



again i will turn to disability. my program is paid for by the government. our clients are unable to work. how will they get the supports they need to live as people in our society without a government-funded program? to address lincoln's argument, some people simply can't do things for themselves. this is what social responsibility is for.
trickle down economics doesn't work. you're absolutely right about that. this is why we need to inject money directly to those that need it. social propgrams like mine and like the public financing of political parties do exactly that. without it, the voices of the marginalised are silenced.

One last quote from the crito:
I submit you didn't even read my post. I agree.

Public financing of do nothing politics does nothing but create a more trickle down....I believe the N in NDP stand for trickle down.

As for Sweden, please enlighten me as to how they are a socialist society....I await your answer....I would say Canada is even more socialist than Sweden.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:20 PM   #52 (permalink)
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As this "colalition" is withen its legal rights to do what it is doing, it should be forced to take it back to the people for an election if they do.
if harper had a majority, you would be right. the issue is that the people have spoken, and they didn't give him a mandate to govern like this. thus the true majority got together and tried to take the power that was rightfully theirs. all of it is moot anyways, because stevie is now hiding behind proroguing parliament to avoid a confidence vote. he'll back down on his ludicrous budget ideas, the coalition will be unneccessary, and all will go back to normal. democracy worked perfectly, imo.

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I got a raise....and I make less money....you figure it out.
well, i guess you ended up in a bad tax bracket. you can always donate some money and get your self back to a better spot. i suggest the united way...
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:22 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Public financing of do nothing politics does nothing but create a more trickle down....I believe the N in NDP stand for trickle down.
no idea what you mean by this. really.

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As for Sweden, please enlighten me as to how they are a socialist society....I await your answer....I would say Canada is even more socialist than Sweden.
all i'm talking about is redistribution of wealth, an idea at which sweden is an expert. in the case of both countries, it works quite well, although nothing is perfect.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:25 PM   #54 (permalink)
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if harper had a majority, you would be right. the issue is that the people have spoken, and they didn't give him a mandate to govern like this. thus the true majority got together and tried to take the power that was rightfully theirs. all of it is moot anyways, because stevie is now hiding behind proroguing parliament to avoid a confidence vote. he'll back down on his ludicrous budget ideas, the coalition will be unneccessary, and all will go back to normal. democracy worked perfectly, imo.



well, i guess you ended up in a bad tax bracket. you can always donate some money and get your self back to a better spot. i suggest the united way...
Are you suggesting that the people that voted Liberal gave them a mandate to join a coalition???....Doubt it.

And Harper was in his full legal right to prorogue Parliment......its our democracy you love so much.

I will have to give less to the UW this year, because the government is choosing to waste more of my money on social programs to give Squeegy Kids an empty bed to waste
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:28 PM   #55 (permalink)
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FYI in Sweden

Quote:
Individual capital income is taxed at a flat rate of 30 percent
Oh fuck I wish we had that here.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:31 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Are you suggesting that the people that voted Liberal gave them a mandate to join a coalition???....Doubt it.

And Harper was in his full legal right to prorogue Parliment......its our democracy you love so much.

I will have to give less to the UW this year, because the government is choosing to waste more of my money on social programs to give Squeegy Kids an empty bed to waste
every party has a mandate to form a coalition if it works towards the platform of that party.

proroguing parliament is usually for things like holidays, illnesses, vacations, etc, and usually comes in a time of stability. although it is his right, this is a stretch, and a cowardly one at that.

partisanship aside, these times of economic uncertainty are precisely when we need to give more to things like the united way. right now there is real need.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:35 PM   #57 (permalink)
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every party has a mandate to form a coalition if it works towards the platform of that party.
proroguing parliament is usually for things like holidays, illnesses, vacations, etc, and usually comes in a time of stability. although it is his right, this is a stretch, and a cowardly one at that.

partisanship aside, these times of economic uncertainty are precisely when we need to give more to things like the united way. right now there is real need.

So are you suggestion that most "Liberals" are comfortable, adapting and being in a group with the platform of the Bloc and NDP.....if you think so...you don't know many Toronto Liberals..

This may in a strange way be a coup for Harper...if it goes to an election against a coalition.....

We will have a Harper majority
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:45 PM   #58 (permalink)
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So are you suggestion that most "Liberals" are comfortable, adapting and being in a group with the platform of the Bloc and NDP.....if you think so...you don't know many Toronto Liberals..

This may in a strange way be a coup for Harper...if it goes to an election against a coalition.....

We will have a Harper majority
very unlikely. the coalition will dissolve itself when harper backs down, which he will. this has a greater chance of uniting the soft left than getting him a majority.

and yes, they are difinitely comfortable with a coalition. you keep insisting that it's with the bloc, but that's flat out wrong. the bloc has actually refused to join the coalition, instead saying they will support it only on confidence votes. what you are repeatedly insisting is a falsehood. the coalition is between the grits and the ndp only. the vast majority of liberals have no problem withn this as long as dion is not the leader, which he no longer is, and as long as it stops harper from governing like he has a majority.

and yes, i know lots of toronto liberals. i grew up in moore park, for crying out loud.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:57 PM   #59 (permalink)
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very unlikely. the coalition will dissolve itself when harper backs down, which he will. this has a greater chance of uniting the soft left than getting him a majority.

and yes, they are difinitely comfortable with a coalition. you keep insisting that it's with the bloc, but that's flat out wrong. the bloc has actually refused to join the coalition, instead saying they will support it only on confidence votes. what you are repeatedly insisting is a falsehood. the coalition is between the grits and the ndp only. the vast majority of liberals have no problem withn this as long as dion is not the leader, which he no longer is, and as long as it stops harper from governing like he has a majority.

and yes, i know lots of toronto liberals. i grew up in moore park, for crying out loud.

We are just going to have to dissagree 'Trane. Have you not noticed Ignatiff's silence on the issue. Layton had this laid out longer before, Harper pulled the money. What has the bloc been promised in return....oh,, nobody knows they won't release the info. Where is your proof the vast majority of Liberals support it....the numbers support my argument. What happens when there is a coalition who are so diometricly opposed on issues such as tax and Afghanistan? A coalition will create a minority government withen a minority government....YAY...we will get stuff done then. The soft left does not have enough votes....we both know it..much like the soft right doesn't have enough votes and lead to the reform party getting blasted. If when Harper backs off of the funding of parties, I agree the parties will back down, but what does that say to all the people that they have told..."this isn't about our money, it about the country"....

So the Bloc (which should recieve no federal funding anyway), is going to enter into a non-confidence vote for the better of Canada? Hmm....thats ironic...

I just wish someone outside of affiliation would stand up and say ENOUGH....

I for one don't hate Ignatiff...and I think he will be a good leader, but from what I know of him, a agreement with the NDP, is out of the question.
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:08 PM   #60 (permalink)
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agree to disagree it is benzo, yet again.

you really think layton has enough political sway to have orchestrated this?

this wasn't just about financing of parties. this was about the economic plan in total, of which that was a part. this was certainly about canada.
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