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-   -   "our economy is not a political game" (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f23/our-economy-not-political-game-19768.html)

'trane 03-23-2011 12:38 PM

"our economy is not a political game"
 
so we seem to be days away from an election call. i need to let off some steam.

how can steve possibly be so underhanded that he can build his entire budget around forcing the opposition into defeating it, and then claim that the 'economy is not a political game'? i suppose this is either a shrewd move or the worst kind of partisan muddying of the process, depending on which side of the fence you sit.

this was most certainly a budget designed to this end. it contained no substantive concessions towards the demands of the opposition parties, but just enough little usless tidbits that he can claim that the opposition is opposed to education, arts and tax breaks. realistically, these 'concessions' added up to almost nothing for the average taxpayer, but it's just enough that he can make bold faced accusations that have no bearing on the platforms of those other parties.

and yet he is standing up for the economy while the others are playing games with our economy? please...

and to invoke the tsunami, lybia and the middle east as reasons to why we shouldn't go into an election when it is his party that is tabling this election-forcing budget is lower than even i thought he could go.

i am losing faith in the political system in our country. if a government as corrupt and power hungry as harper's tories manages to get elected again amidst this sham of a budget, i hold little hope for the next few years.

harperites - flay me as you will.

LX 03-23-2011 01:00 PM

To me it looks like Harper's American advisors have been having quite an effect over the last little while. The kinds of negative ads and the use of repeated talking points to shape coverage and political reality, often without any concern for transparency or integrity, but rather as a means of making lies take on a life of their own, shows something of a mastery of the science of smear and fear.

And still what stands out for me is the irrelevance of all these guys. Oh boy - I could get a bit of cash if I had kids and took them to art classes! The bureaucracy can handle anything that really matters. All the politicians matter for is in how they might be able to sabotage the work of bureaucrats, or come up with some sort of bullshit that they think we might care about.

Ligeia 03-23-2011 01:41 PM

"Framing" in the 21st century. Gross.

The reality is that the budget is, and always has been, a political game. If the items in the budget were universally agreed upon by economists, there would be no debate, but economics is not that simple. The biggest political disagreements will ALWAYS arise in the budget.

Go back 5 years and you would hear the exact same argument but with the LPC and CPC reversed.

pzabby 03-24-2011 12:59 AM

imo the conservatives did this on purpose, thus i agree with you trane, but possibly not for the same reasons. i believe that currently, there are no parties that enough canadians have faith in to overthrow the conservative monopoly that has been canada in recent years. liberals are still scarred by their scandal(thankyou smear ads) while the conservatives are spending billions on what, fighter jets? the liberals are also without a strong political leader. ignatieff is smart as are most politicians, but he does not have the showmanship required to win an election(see:trudeaumania). also, ignatieff has spent a large chunk of his life in the U.S(thanks again smear adds:dead:) and therefore canadians just dont believe he knows what it takes to be, well, canadian. harper is devious and corporate poison but because hes a strong showman, he has and i believe(sadly) will win again. ignatieff reads french poetry while harper watches the olympic hockey finals in vancouver. ignatieff needs to understand that being "posh" does not relate to the majority of canadians, i.e middle class. he needs to take his lifestyle(at least under the cameras) a step down to have a fighting chance.

and let's face it, the bloc can't win, the NDP won't. there just arent enough supporters. one of the biggest thing helping harper stay up top is how the votes are split up. its sad the NDP are as different as they are from the liberals because if they merged, it would be an easy victory for the leftists.

i smell as do most people another election, but im not too hopeful on a different result. i fear harper may even win a majority this time

thought 03-24-2011 08:50 AM

hold on you think harper is a showman?

'trane 03-24-2011 09:14 AM

i take him more as suggesting that the harper political machine is better at putting on a show and delivering messages that sink into the public consciousness than the ignatieff liberals. i'd have to agree. their single most effective communications piece is that they are excellent at branding people - especially opposition - before those people have a chance to brand themselves in the media spotlight. it's a remarkably effective strategy, and exactly what has happened with ignatieff.

and part of that success is based on harper's brand - that he isn't a showman, that he is just a humble servant of the people that doesn't seek the spotlight. but behind the scenes he is exactly that kind of propagandist. he controls all of these attack ads, all of these branding exercises involving his opposition, all of the muzzling of his own people and the tailoring of every political message that comes from his party to meet the demands of his office. again, it's excellent branding. do one thing, but convince the public you are doing exactly the opposite.

and it is the effectiveness of this propoganda campaign that keeps the sponsorship scandal glued to the liberals (who hardly have anyone left from that era), while the littany of conservative scandals (twice shutting down parliament so he didn't lose votes in the house, contempt charges, the bev oda nonsense , the long form census, g20 spending and police, the in and out scam, guergis coverup and them subsequent banishment, afghan detainees, and the colvin smear, carson illegal lobbying in indian affairs, etc) don't stick. he is a superb propagandist.

pzabby 03-24-2011 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 522854)
i take him more as suggesting that the harper political machine is better at putting on a show and delivering messages that sink into the public consciousness than the ignatieff liberals. i'd have to agree. their single most effective communications piece is that they are excellent at branding people - especially opposition - before those people have a chance to brand themselves in the media spotlight. it's a remarkably effective strategy, and exactly what has happened with ignatieff.

and part of that success is based on harper's brand - that he isn't a showman, that he is just a humble servant of the people that doesn't seek the spotlight. but behind the scenes he is exactly that kind of propagandist. he controls all of these attack ads, all of these branding exercises involving his opposition, all of the muzzling of his own people and the tailoring of every political message that comes from his party to meet the demands of his office. again, it's excellent branding. do one thing, but convince the public you are doing exactly the opposite.

and it is the effectiveness of this propoganda campaign that keeps the sponsorship scandal glued to the liberals (who hardly have anyone left from that era), while the littany of conservative scandals (twice shutting down parliament so he didn't lose votes in the house, contempt charges, the bev oda nonsense , the long form census, g20 spending and police, the in and out scam, guergis coverup and them subsequent banishment, afghan detainees, and the colvin smear, carson illegal lobbying in indian affairs, etc) don't stick. he is a superb propagandist.

:cookie: what he said

LX 03-24-2011 05:09 PM

I still think the biggest reason for his success as a propagandist, at least in terms of nothing sticking to him, is that there's really so little relevance to what he does anyway.

The thing that really pisses me off is the census. By killing its effectiveness he's taking away the effectiveness of the bureaucratic machinery that is far more important to our everyday lives. It means that money will be spent without having a clear idea of the needs or aims beforehand, and money will not be spent in some areas where it could be desperately needed - leading to much greater costs down the line. All the government in Ottawa has to do is allow for good information to flow and direct an appropriate response. They've given up just about any other powers that mean anything. Now the ability to obtain good information has taken a huge hit. That leaves fighter jets and disinformation. And that game can and will be played by both major parties. Fuck them.

pzabby 03-24-2011 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 523022)
I still think the biggest reason for his success as a propagandist, at least in terms of nothing sticking to him, is that there's really so little relevance to what he does anyway.

The thing that really pisses me off is the census. By killing its effectiveness he's taking away the effectiveness of the bureaucratic machinery that is far more important to our everyday lives. It means that money will be spent without having a clear idea of the needs or aims beforehand, and money will not be spent in some areas where it could be desperately needed - leading to much greater costs down the line. All the government in Ottawa has to do is allow for good information to flow and direct an appropriate response. They've given up just about any other powers that mean anything. Now the ability to obtain good information has taken a huge hit. That leaves fighter jets and disinformation. And that game can and will be played by both major parties. Fuck them.

im getting a vibe your not a fan of either/any party?

LX 03-24-2011 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 523029)
im getting a vibe your not a fan of either/any party?

well - the Liberals would not have killed the usefulness of the census. But they are pretty similar. And everything ends up being about the advisors in the PMO turning the whole parliament into a joke. They desperately need proportional representation and a meaningful agenda. Without that it's all bullshit.

Benzo 03-24-2011 07:01 PM

Thankfully I have enjoyed this news in the friendly confines of Calgary and Alberta.

That is all...

*bows out, before calling out socialists*

*looks at 'Trane and LX.....*

We have done this dance before. I liked the budget.

pzabby 03-24-2011 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 523050)
Thankfully I have enjoyed this news in the friendly confines of Calgary and Alberta.

That is all...

*bows out, before calling out socialists*

*looks at 'Trane and LX.....*

We have done this dance before. I liked the budget.

for one thing, disliking the conservatives does not make anyone a socialist(i know your exaggerating but its too much), second, I do not know Trane's political preference but if he supports the liberals he is on the RIGHT side of the bar. many people dont know that about the liberals..

just wanted to clarify that for anyone :P

LX 03-24-2011 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 523050)
Thankfully I have enjoyed this news in the friendly confines of Calgary and Alberta.

That is all...

*bows out, before calling out socialists*

*looks at 'Trane and LX.....*

We have done this dance before. I not liked the budget.

I thought the suitable addition was called for

ClingRap 03-24-2011 11:04 PM

If we're to call the government the "Harper Government" then this makes perfect sense. Why should one expect basic levels of disclosure when it's their money anyway?

And Benzo, this goes beyond simple spectrum debates and politics. The conservatives like to trot out empty ad campaigns that cost tens of millions (with no information on how to access grants, programs, services etc) featuring all the colours, genders, classes, ages, and abilities in the rainbow. Then have their politics reflect that the only people who matter in this country are white, mid-forties males with a mid-sized penis.

Benzo 03-24-2011 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClingRap (Post 523181)
If we're to call the government the "Harper Government" then this makes perfect sense. Why should one expect basic levels of disclosure when it's their money anyway?

And Benzo, this goes beyond simple spectrum debates and politics. The conservatives like to trot out empty ad campaigns that cost tens of millions (with no information on how to access grants, programs, services etc) featuring all the colours, genders, classes, ages, and abilities in the rainbow. Then have their politics reflect that the only people who matter in this country are white, mid-forties males with a mid-sized penis.

Oh I know I was only playing around.

It doesn't matter, its going to be a conservative, minority again....maybe a majority..

My problem is with your system, I am not sure and someone can correct me but 4 elections in 6 years? how is any government of ours, NDP, Lib, Conserv...whomever, supposed to enact any real action, when the other parties are willing to do whatever it takes to get in power, and bring down the existing government...When I hear talks of the different parties courting the Bloc vote just to cause an election I was ready to move.

The system needs to change...or its not over untill there is a majority.

'trane 03-24-2011 11:23 PM

there is no question in my mind that harper wants this election. his whole budget is designed to make sure that happens.

Benzo 03-24-2011 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 523190)
there is no question in my mind that harper wants this election. his whole budget is designed to make sure that happens.

Sure the system is flawed like I said...

There are a bunch of potatoes running the other parties.

Dark Knight 03-24-2011 11:27 PM

Look, it's Benzo! He lives! :dancing:

Benzo 03-24-2011 11:27 PM

The others do too though...they all have a limited of time in the "sun". If the waited Jack, and Mike probably would be replaced.

Have a vote...the party with the lowest amount of votes, is dropped...have another vote, and repeat until there is a majority.

In 4 years..another round

'trane 03-24-2011 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 523194)

There are a bunch of potatoes running the other parties.


i don't buy that at all. these are not incompetent people by any stretch benzo. they may be branded as such, but that is by no means true.


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