The Money Markets.
Old 08-08-2011, 01:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ouch.





that is all
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:29 PM   #2 (permalink)
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whole nations were suddenly in the same situation as the san mateo, unable to buy with their paper money and coins, or their written promises to pay later, even the barest essentials. persons with anything life sustaining to sell, fellow citizens as well as foreigners, were refusing to exchange their goods for money. they were suddenly saying to people with paper representations of wealth, "wake up you idiots! whatever made you think paper was so valuable?"

there was still plenty of food and fuel and so on for all the human beings on the planet, as numerous as they had become, but millions upon millions of them were starving to death now. the healthiest of them could go without food for only about forty days, and then death would come.

and this famine was as purely a product of oversize brains as beethoven's ninth symphony.

it was all in people's heads. people had simply changed their opinions of paper wealth, but, for all practical purposes, the planet might well have been knocked out of orbit by a meteor the size of luxembourg.

this financial crisis... was simply the latest in a series of murderous twentieth century catastrophes which had originated entirely in human brains. from the violence people were doing to themselves and each other, and to all other living things, for that matter, a visitor from another planet might have assumed the environment had gone haywire, and that the people were in such a frenzy because nature was about to kill them all.

but the planet a million years ago was as moist and nourishing as it is today - an unique, in that respect, in the entire milky way. all that changed was people's opinion of the place.

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Old 08-08-2011, 03:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
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US equities got spanked last week... even the okay unemployment number didn't help much on Friday. Then the US downgrade to AA+ fueled extra fire for today's beating. If you guys don't trade or have access to a platform you can track the market realtime here: FreeStockCharts.com - Web's Best Streaming Realtime Stock Charts - Free Use SPY to track the main market (also QQQQ, IWM, DIA). (Crude: USO, Nat Gas: UNG, Gold: GLD, Silver: SLV). But yea, a ton of downside momentum, the VIX is ripping, Gold making new highs = not good).

Since most of you guys are Canadians this is actually not such bad news for you since your economy is dominated by commodities. Toronto as a financial center will get hurt (see Bank of America today) but gold stocks are actually green. Gold in general is ripping today. Commodity countries such as Canada, Brazil, Australia, South Africa, etc. are not in as bad shape as the US. But still only metals are doing well (copper is getting crushed as it trades more with techs - semiconductors)... energy prices are going down (good for some, bad for others). Will be interesting to see what the CAD/USD does. Usually world equity markets will all sell (including commodity countries) but the currency is more important as it's a better measure for "real" wealth.

The irony is that the US economy sucks, but pretty much elsewhere it's just worse. The US Treasuries are still "flight to safety" assets, and the USD is still the world's reserve currency. It's bad in the US, but worse in Europe. Asian countries, China, needs the US to buy their goods (export-dependent economy). Japan and China also hold a sh!tload of US Treasuries... if they were to sell such huge positions then they would hurt themselves by making the prices worthless.



The S&P 500 is down 9% in 1 yr or 8.5% YTD...

The S&P closed down 6.66% today.... 666... The S&P's low in Spring of 2009 was 666... coincidence or conspiracy lol

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Old 08-09-2011, 10:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It is times like this that I wish I was still an engineering student
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Ouch.





that is all
Hurts you terrible and evil right wing crazies more than us poor, pathetic treehugging lefties.


:P
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Long-term, the left in the US has been way, way more damaged by this than the right. Obama was the great Hope for creating a socialist welfare state in a country that has historically been hyper-capitalist. Further, Bush and Obama's huge bailouts and investments have, by most accounts, done very little to stabilize the economy while costing a fair amount, again casting aspersions on the notion of any centrally planned economy in the mind of the US voter. Obama has progressive ideas but lacks the spine and wherewithal to implement them and thus will be a 1 term President.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Democrats and Republicans are very similar... they differentiate themselves mainly on social issues, not financial ones. Both groups are about big government. Bush spent more than all the past presidents combined. There are not many true conservatives left. Ron Paul is the lone voice in Congress. Republicans spend money on wars, defense spending, or reduce revenues by giving corporate tax breaks. Democrats spend on social programs to subsidize the losers of society.

Obama will be re-elected imo. There's just no serious Republican presidential candidate (Ron Paul, unfortunately, is disliked by his own party). The market is only down 9% YTD so it's not a big deal, plus stocks don't accurately portray the economy anyway... They're driven by emotions and not by fundamentals.

Every empire has it's day...
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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To clarify, I'm talking about voter sentiment towards particular ideologies and movements, not parties. So, my claim is that the brief and unsuccessful flirtation with European-style mixed economy has left a bad taste in the mouth of the centrist voters. This, combined with the serious strain on many European countries over the last 3 years, has effectively eliminated the possibility of a seriously progressive agenda in the US, no matter who the candidate is.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Aside healthcare, there are insignificant ideological differences between this president and the last. Obama even extended the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. I'm not sure what you mean by European style mixed economy and whether voters choose that when they elected Obama.

But yea, it's political suicide to appear "socialist", even on many social issues. I honestly even sympathize with the Tea Party on financial matters. Aside Ron Paul the other candidates (Bachman, Palin and related.) are buffoons. I'm just very libertarian. Wall Street is really in the pockets of the Democrats and Republicans don't even believe in free market capitalism anymore. Shame...
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Aside Ron Paul the other candidates (Bachman, Palin and related.) are buffoons.


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Old 08-10-2011, 12:17 AM   #11 (permalink)
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The problem with Ron Paul is more fundamental. If you look at the issues that really matter to him (like drug legalization, reducing Imperialistic impulses, change of monetary policy), he has hardly made even the tiniest bit of headway. Whether he is right or not, he obviously cannot convince the people that matter. On top of that, you have almost 3 decades of failed Presidency attempts and someone who occasionally shows signs of seriously conservative social justice (like if you've ever heard him talk about sensitive race issues or abortion), which are arguably the least tenable sorts of things to be conservative about (unlike, say, economics).

Bachmann and Palin will not win the Rep nomination because neither has the slightest chance in hell of winning the election. Although he has some problems with the Republican base (on medicare and climate change, in particular), I still think Romney is their best shot at winning.

Regardless of who wins the Presidential race, you can expect that much of the focus will be on cutting spending from a centralized (ie. Federal) government, which is the antithesis of Western European government (and herein I include essentially all countries that put a strong focus on combining capitalist enterprise with socialist welfare like public education, health care, employment insurance, etc).
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Ron Paul has a lot of unconventional views and its tough to cherry pick the bad ones.... such as evolution. I think it was poorly worded. I'm an atheist (maybe agnostic) and to discuss the role of God is really a question no one can honestly answer (although I strongly believe in evolution). Overall he's the best candidate imo. Setting the financial house in order is the main goal and he would be the Michael Jordan of that.

Ligeia, Romney is one of the more sane Republican candidates. I still don't think a Mormon is going to beat Obama. Also, the candidates of both parties will campaign on a platform of smaller government, less taxes and so forth, but when they're in office they will spend and increase the power of the executive branch. I supported Bush in 2000 (shame) as a high school student. In the 2008 election Obama turned out to be all talk. I hate war and I believed that he would end the mess in Iraq or Afghanistan... then he SENT MORE TROOPS. Talk is cheap but that's politics. Utopian ideas rarely work and politicians are rarely honest.

I'm an American citizen so it's very frustrating. I think Obama is still the less evil of all realistic candidates. Paul Volcker should run for president lol

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Old 08-10-2011, 03:37 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Ron Paul has a lot of unconventional views and its tough to cherry pick the bad ones.... such as evolution.
It's important. It speaks to his competency and critical thinking skills. How do you expect somebody to make sound policy decisions related to science and technology, when they are a dumbass?

What's potentially worse, is that it's possible he's just too scared to admit he accepts evolution. If that is the case, so much for the claims about him being willing to go against the grain of right wing Christian douchebagery that has infiltrated the Republican platform in recent years. Ron Paul is not above being a pandering tool. I suspect his visits to the Alex Jones show are, in part, an attempt to tap into the far right, libertarian kook/conspiracy vote.

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I think it was poorly worded.
Lame excuse. He said he doesn't believe in evolution. He's an embarrassment to the medical profession, and not worthy of a serious person's vote.

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I'm an atheist (maybe agnostic)
They're not mutually exclusive. Atheism deals with belief. Agnosticism deals with knowledge. You can lack belief in God, without claiming to know 100% for sure that God does not exist. In fact, Agnostic atheism (weak atheism) is the most honest position. It appears as though you're a weak atheist. Hey, look at that! We might agree!

I lack belief, but do not make claims about God's existence. I might joke about God not existing, but deep down I know that I do not have the answer. I also know that any human who tries to tell me that he/she has any clue about what God wants (if God exists) is also almost certainly full of total shit. Especially the people who go into detail. So, yeah, a huge chunk of the planet is full of crap.

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and to discuss the role of God is really a question no one can honestly answer (although I strongly believe in evolution).
If you're a theist, whether it be Christian, Muslim or Jew, and you have a fucking brain, the correct answer is:

"I accept evolution and believe in God. Contrary to what some people think, the two positions are not mutually exclusive."

That is what an intelligent person of faith says. Anybody with critical thinking skills worthy of leading the United States could come up with that simple fucking answer. It's an embarrassment to science and all thinking people that we still have fucking clowns who deny the systems of knowledge that have given so much to us.

All kinds of theists, especially those outside of America, believe in God while also accepting evolution. Religious faith is not a legitimate excuse for denying evolution, unless you're an idiot and/or an extremist.

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Overall he's the best candidate imo.
I'm not the least bit surprised that you'd say that. You've got the personality of a Paul supporter.

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Setting the financial house in order is the main goal and he would be the Michael Jordan of that.
You mean that Paul is going to use Austrian economics to turn America into a deeper shit hole, just like Jordan mismanaged the Bobcats.

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Ligeia, Romney is one of the more sane Republican candidates.
I'm sure he's thrilled to have your blessing.

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I still don't think a Mormon is going to beat Obama.
In 2007, did people think a black dude was going to be president? Did they even think he would defeat Hillary to win the Democratic nomination?


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Also, the candidates of both parties will campaign on a platform of smaller government, less taxes and so forth, but when they're in office they will spend and increase the power of the executive branch.
Yup.

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I'm an American citizen so it's very frustrating.
I feel bad for other Americans. I don't really feel sorry for you, because ...
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Democrats spend on social programs to subsidize the losers of society.
You sound like a jerk.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:04 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Aside healthcare, there are insignificant ideological differences between this president and the last. Obama even extended the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. I'm not sure what you mean by European style mixed economy and whether voters choose that when they elected Obama.

But yea, it's political suicide to appear "socialist", even on many social issues. I honestly even sympathize with the Tea Party on financial matters. Aside Ron Paul the other candidates (Bachman, Palin and related.) are buffoons. I'm just very libertarian. Wall Street is really in the pockets of the Democrats and Republicans don't even believe in free market capitalism anymore. Shame...
Obama extended the tax cuts for the rich b/c he lost majority and couldn't get the tax hikes on the top 1-2%. When the negotiations were going on in the last few weeks in reguards to the debt ceiling, Obama was saying any deal had to include tax reform on the rich and in fact from what I read he gave the republicans more then they wanted on everything else but the tax hikes on the richest 1% was the deal breaker, and it was then taken off the table. Looking at the poles, the republicans are getting a greater percentage of the blame for their lack of comprimise. Most americans think the richest americans should be taxed more. At the very least, there needs to be reform on the tax code for the rich which has so many loop holes it's ridiculous.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:01 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Everyone should be taxed less...

I honestly believe that "rich" people will spend/allocate their capital/resources better than a bureaucratic government would. Taxes of say 15% are warranted to allow government provide the basics that citizens entrusted it to do. Any excess taxes are really a slap to the face of people; government is saying that we can allocate this capital better then you can.

A lot of rich people are rich for a reason... they know how to allocate capital. The main threat of rich people is that they will invest overseas and not in the domestic economy. Even if the invest in China the result is cheaper prices for the consumer. It's the rich people that stimulate the economy and create... not government. Government is good at being inefficient, spending on dumb but politically popular projects (usually pork), supporting crony capitalism, etc.

For anyone to pay 40% in taxes is ridiculous. To have x% of the population to pay 0 taxes is even more absurd... the very same people who have access to a free education, food stamps, sometimes affirmative action, and now free healthcare, is bullsh1t. Okay I'm a jerk but to subsidize the losers of society is futile. Sure some of these circumstances is the result of bad luck but the U.S. provides enough opportunities for individuals to become middle class if you one tries hard enough.

I would support Warren Buffett to pay 0 taxes because he would spend his "tax budren" more wisely then government would. Here's what the US govt is good at... getting in debt for spending on stupid things (and blaming rich people on a lack of tax revenues):

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
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people/corporations should be taxed less. governments should be smaller.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
Everyone should be taxed less...

I honestly believe that "rich" people will spend/allocate their capital/resources better than a bureaucratic government would. Taxes of say 15% are warranted to allow government provide the basics that citizens entrusted it to do. Any excess taxes are really a slap to the face of people; government is saying that we can allocate this capital better then you can.

A lot of rich people are rich for a reason... they know how to allocate capital. The main threat of rich people is that they will invest overseas and not in the domestic economy. Even if the invest in China the result is cheaper prices for the consumer. It's the rich people that stimulate the economy and create... not government. Government is good at being inefficient, spending on dumb but politically popular projects (usually pork), supporting crony capitalism, etc.

For anyone to pay 40% in taxes is ridiculous. To have x% of the population to pay 0 taxes is even more absurd... the very same people who have access to a free education, food stamps, sometimes affirmative action, and now free healthcare, is bullsh1t. Okay I'm a jerk but to subsidize the losers of society is futile. Sure some of these circumstances is the result of bad luck but the U.S. provides enough opportunities for individuals to become middle class if you one tries hard enough.

I would support Warren Buffett to pay 0 taxes because he would spend his "tax budren" more wisely then government would. Here's what the US govt is good at... getting in debt for spending on stupid things (and blaming rich people on a lack of tax revenues):

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
The rich in America pay little taxes as it is. In some cases they get away with paying no taxes by using shelters etc.... And tax rates for the rich are at the lowest in decades. And they aren't creating jobs, they're hoarding the money for themselves, giving each other massive bonuses and buying corporate jets. The rich supposedly pay a whopping 18% in taxes (if they pay at all). That's lower taxes then i pay, and i'm far from a millionaire.



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In fact, many don't pay taxes at all. Now, those familiar with the Mack-truck sized loopholes written into the tax code (example: the wealthy who make their money off capital gains only pay a 15 percent tax rate, if that) shouldn't be surprised.

According to a recently released IRS report (PDF), 1,470 millionaires and billionaires paid zero taxes in 2009.
Millionaires Don't Pay Taxes? 1,470 of America's Richest Didn't, According to IRS - Los Angeles News - The Informer

http://money.msn.com/taxes/latest.as...3-e1da1151ea5f


Rich People?s Taxes Have Little to Do with Job Creation

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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by a show of hands. who's been hired by a poor person?
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:42 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
Everyone should be taxed less...

I honestly believe that "rich" people will spend/allocate their capital/resources better than a bureaucratic government would. Taxes of say 15% are warranted to allow government provide the basics that citizens entrusted it to do. Any excess taxes are really a slap to the face of people; government is saying that we can allocate this capital better then you can.

A lot of rich people are rich for a reason... they know how to allocate capital. The main threat of rich people is that they will invest overseas and not in the domestic economy. Even if the invest in China the result is cheaper prices for the consumer. It's the rich people that stimulate the economy and create... not government. Government is good at being inefficient, spending on dumb but politically popular projects (usually pork), supporting crony capitalism, etc.

For anyone to pay 40% in taxes is ridiculous. To have x% of the population to pay 0 taxes is even more absurd... the very same people who have access to a free education, food stamps, sometimes affirmative action, and now free healthcare, is bullsh1t. Okay I'm a jerk but to subsidize the losers of society is futile. Sure some of these circumstances is the result of bad luck but the U.S. provides enough opportunities for individuals to become middle class if you one tries hard enough.

I would support Warren Buffett to pay 0 taxes because he would spend his "tax budren" more wisely then government would. Here's what the US govt is good at... getting in debt for spending on stupid things (and blaming rich people on a lack of tax revenues):

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
a couple of questions -

1. would you agree that some people need to be subsidized? people with disbilities? mental health problems? people who have faced serious trauma? people fleeing abuse? immigrants seeking refuge?

2. if yes, what makes you think that rich people would put any money towards that? how do you ensure that your social safety net has enough funds to cover the massive amount of need from these types of areas if it is entirely up to teh good will of people to donate?

3. even if you think that a nominal 15% would cover all of these things (in addition to the military, basic infrastructure, etc), why is it that you think things like free education, free healthcare and food stamps are for 'losers' only? do you assume that there is a level playing field to begin with? do you assume that a person, for example, that is born into abject poverty and abuse is able to simply pull themselves up and compete with everyone alse at the same level of opportunity? or do you assume that each generation should take on the failure of their parents to adequately provide and thus automatically be considered a loser from the moment they are born?

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