The Money Markets. - Page 5
Old 08-10-2011, 03:08 PM   #81 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
'Trane, where does the money come from? Where will the money continue to come from?

Why are we trying to make everyone mediocre? Lets raise the bar, more for everyone.

I am not against welfare, social programs, the arts etc... they should be funded in part by my money, but the more you take from me the less I have.

Should I have less? I pay half my income to the government, I would be better off making less money, I am serious.

It seems backwards to me, I would prefer to enable. If they let me have my money, I would have bought a bigger house, and paid more property tax...

As a side bar (double property tax in this city is nute...I paid 20k in property tax on my new place)
...i'm guessing that you don't really need a bigger house...

not sure what you are asking. ideally the money comes from people generating wealth within the system. sometimes they make it outside of the system. either way, the system supports the generation of wealth. i am not against that. i am a capitalist.

the issue for me is wealth redistribution. this isn't about making everyone mediocre. far from it. as an extreme, taking a person worth $100 million and making her worth $50 million does not make her mediocre. it just makes her less rich. 'mediocrity' is a term that refers to adequacy or quality. in many cases wealth has nothing to do with that. in fact, as it is there are plenty of mediocre rich people and plenty of high quality poor people. this may be a semantic point because i think i know what you were trying to say.

what wealth redistribution does do, though, is create more opportunity for people to do something productive with the wealth that has been redistributed to them. it is less a burden on the social fabric to increase capacity amongst the poor than to let them rot. and the era of paternalistic social programs is coming to an end, at least in my sector. the emphasis in programs now is to build capacity not to hand out. it is initially expensive, but costs less in the long term as it creates independance.

of course this does not speak to infrastructure, which we all need - especially businesses - and which is extraordinarily expensive.

i also pay almost half of my money to the government in taxes. it angers me when this is wasted, but that waste pales in comparison to the good that the money does. in the end i am happy to pay high taxes - in fact i get enjoyment from doing it - as long as expenditures can be justified. so we should be engaging in a talk of government expenditure and how money can be used effectively rather than compaining about the tax rate.

the simple fact is, and i can tell you this from first hand experience, that the money available for much of canada's critical social programs falls drastically short of the demand. it is true that not every organization is run with top efficiency, but it is also true that the funds simply aren't there to provide for our most vulnerable people. i can't imagine that the private sector is going to come in and chip in the rest. it's a massive amount of money and there is no immediate impact on bottom line. add to that the relative 'popularity' or lack of populatity with different causes and you wouldn't have a system that provides that broad coverage of critical services. i would love to know how the private sector could cover this, as you have alluded to in the past. this question still remains unanswered.

we need to make better decisions on how to spend government revenue. from my personal and professional experience, lowering taxes cannot be an option until that is done.

Last edited by 'trane; 08-10-2011 at 03:13 PM.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:10 PM   #82 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
...i'm guessing that you don't really need a bigger house...


Right there is where we differ. I'm tired.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:14 PM   #83 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

so if i left that part off would you try to debate or would you just bail when it gets down to the nitty gritty? this is what usually happens.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:21 PM   #84 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,872
Representing:
Default

I don't own a house. I have zero assets. I am a dumb loser.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:24 PM   #85 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
so if i left that part off would you try to debate or would you just bail when it gets down to the nitty gritty? this is what usually happens.
It's a not debatable argument, if you can toss out "I guess you didn't need a bigger house"

You didn't adress any of my concerns , just went off on your own rant "this is what usually happens".

How can you defend a system, that has me making more money, and taking home less than I did before.

Tax me less, take the money you do get from me and spend it wisely, don't make fucking bike lanes and then take them away, dont support the interest of small loud groups, just for votes. I am a supporter of less government, because all they do is waste my money.

Protect the weak, make the vulnerable secure, improve infrastructure; do not use me as a piggy bank. You are happy to pay taxes, I am happy to pay some, all I know is the harder I work 17hours a day these days, the more travelling I do, all to provide a better standard of living to my family is becoming impossible, becaue when it finally pays off , they take me right back to were I started.

Why should I even bother? I would be better off taking 50k a year, leaving my wife at home and enjoying government subsidy right now instead of working my ass off to better my situation.

It's broken.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #86 (permalink)
216 :}

Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 574
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
it angers me when this is wasted, but that waste pales in comparison to the good that the money does. in the end i am happy to pay high taxes - in fact i get enjoyment from doing it - as long as expenditures can be justified.
You're Canadian so maybe it's different, but as a American I am enraged at how my MONEY is spent. For the US govt it's not even enough to spend taxpayers money on pork and other bullshit, but we just borrow, borrow, borrow (mainly from the Chinese & Japanese)...

You may not have the same issues as in the U.S. If I lived in Norway I'd be glad to subsidize my neighbor who fell on tough times... in the U.S. you're most likely subsidizing a coward. Additionally, the money may not even go into social matters but in even more ludicrous ones such as fighting the war on drugs, war on terror and other equally ambiguous battles. I'm also helping to bailout companies that took really ill-advised risks and deserved to fail... shame that they're "too big too fail" and have systemic risk (who let them get this big)... WTF

Question: What do you guys do for a living. Usually this helps explain some of the divide...

Last edited by 6cubed; 08-10-2011 at 03:41 PM.
6cubed is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:45 PM   #87 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
It's a not debatable argument, if you can toss out "I guess you didn't need a bigger house"
the house comment was tongue in cheek and not really related to the rest at all. that should be obvious.

Quote:
You didn't adress any of my concerns , just went off on your own rant "this is what usually happens".
i tried to respond to your comment, but as i said, i didn't understand what you are asking. i have never shied away from responding to you benzo. this is most certainbly not what usually happens. re-phrase and i will be happy to get to it.

Quote:
How can you defend a system, that has me making more money, and taking home less than I did before.
i didn't defend the tax code, i defended higher taxes. that doesn't mean it is perfect in the precise way that it is arranged.

Quote:
Tax me less, take the money you do get from me and spend it wisely, don't make fucking bike lanes and then take them away, dont support the interest of small loud groups, just for votes. I am a supporter of less government, because all they do is waste my money.
-the bike lanes had nothing to do with income tax, and if i remember correctly, you indicated your intention to vote for the guy that promised to get rid of the lanes.
-the rich are probably the loudest small group in canada. should we ignore them?
-the last sentence is such a gross exaggeration and oversimplification that i don't even know how to get into it. there are situations in which waste occurs, certainly, but that's just a ridiculous point to make. 'all they do is waste money' - like by building roads and hospitals and schools and such? we need these things. we can argue with government that they need to be better about being efficient, but business hasn't exactly made these things work well for your average or your poor canadian either.

Quote:
Protect the weak, make the vulnerable secure, improve infrastructure; do not use me as a piggy bank. You are happy to pay taxes, I am happy to pay some, all I know is the harder I work 17hours a day these days, the more travelling I do, all to provide a better standard of living to my family is becoming impossible, becaue when it finally pays off , they take me right back to were I started.
again, i never defended the intricacies of our tax code. there are problems with it. you are in a tough spot - the same one that my family was in when i was growing up, and pretty much the same one i am in right now - the bottom end of the highest bracket. that is problematic. but that doesn't mean that high taxes are bad. those are two separate issues that each compose part of a massive question about taxation.

Quote:
Why should I even bother? I would be better off taking 50k a year, leaving my wife at home and enjoying government subsidy right now instead of working my ass off to better my situation.

It's broken.
if you think that would be better for you, go right ahead.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:49 PM   #88 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
in the U.S. you're most likely subsidizing a coward.
nonsense.

Quote:
Additionally, the money may not even go into social matters but in even more ludicrous ones such as fighting the war on drugs, war on terror and other equally ambiguous battles. I'm also helping to bailout companies that took really ill-advised risks and deserved to fail... shame that they're "too big too fail" and have systemic risk (who let them get this big)... WTF
[/b]
then argue against the war on drugs, the war on terror and the other equally ambiguous battles. the amount at which you are taxed is not the issue if this is your complaint. there is enormous demand for government spending in other areas that are critical. if you ditched these 'ambiguous battles' there is still plenty of justification for the tax rate. putting some back into your crumbling school system would be a great start.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:52 PM   #89 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
the house comment was tongue in cheek and not really related to the rest at all. that should be obvious.
It wasn't



Quote:
i tried to respond to your comment, but as i said, i didn't understand what you are asking. i have never shied away from responding to you benzo. this is most certainbly not what usually happens. re-phrase and i will be happy to get to it.
Doesn't matter

Quote:
i didn't defend the tax code, i defended higher taxes. that doesn't mean it is perfect in the precise way that it is arranged.
They are one and the same, I wont get into a philosophical debate on higher taxes without knowing their effect.

Quote:
-the bike lanes had nothing to do with income tax, and if i remember correctly, you indicated your intention to vote for the guy that promised to get rid of the lanes.
I did, I still think its stupid. DO I have to agree with everything my elected official does?

Quote:
-the rich are probably the loudest small group in canada. should we ignore them?
Its unions, and some of them are rich sure

Quote:
the last sentence is such a gross exaggeration and oversimplification that i don't even know how to get into it. there are situations in which waste occurs, certainly, but that's just a ridiculous point to make. 'all they do is waste money' - like by building roads and hospitals and schools and such? we need these things. we can argue with government that they need to be better about being efficient, but business hasn't exactly made these things work well for your average or your poor canadian either.
Agreed, it was an exaggeration


Quote:
again, i never defended the intricacies of our tax code. there are problems with it. you are in a tough spot - the same one that my family was in when i was growing up, and pretty much the same one i am in right now - the bottom end of the highest bracket. that is problematic. but that doesn't mean that high taxes are bad. those are two separate issues that each compose part of a massive question about taxation.
Again, I can't separate the 2, "Higher taxes are good" is impossible to assert when not knowing how they are enforced.



Quote:
if you think that would be better for you, go right ahead.
Thats the problem, too many people do. One more person leaching, one less giving.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:01 PM   #90 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,307
Representing:
Default

jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:01 PM   #91 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Again, I can't separate the 2, "Higher taxes are good" is impossible to assert when not knowing how they are enforced.
this is the only part of your post worth addressing.

higher taxes are necessary given the demand. that is the argument i am making. the issue of whether or not the line at which the top bracket is established is not the same kind of discussion as the one that argues that more money for group homes is necessary.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:06 PM   #92 (permalink)
216 :}

Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 574
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
then argue against the war on drugs, the war on terror and the other equally ambiguous battles. the amount at which you are taxed is not the issue if this is your complaint. there is enormous demand for government spending in other areas that are critical. if you ditched these 'ambiguous battles' there is still plenty of justification for the tax rate. putting some back into your crumbling school system would be a great start.
What justifies for 40% of income to be taxed?

Seriously... what my freedom against some terrorist plotting in a cave? Some dumbass family that couldn't finish high school because of their unfortunate circumstances? Bailing out an old-boy school network of banking cartesl?

Seriously a lot of that $ goes to the Sean Penn's that didn't become actors...
6cubed is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:07 PM   #93 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
Some dumbass family that couldn't finish high school because of their unfortunate circumstances?
you continue to paint yourself as a guy that has absolutely no clue what it means to live in poverty.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:12 PM   #94 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,872
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
Seriously a lot of that $ goes to the Sean Penn's that didn't become actors...
Hey, bro, back off. Sean Penn is a good dude!

Remember when he jumped in his boat and started personally saving the flood victims in New Orleans? Epic.

Make fun of Charlie Sheen! If he wasn't an actor, that dude would be fucked!
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:15 PM   #95 (permalink)
216 :}

Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 574
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
you continue to paint yourself as a guy that has absolutely no clue what it means to live in poverty.
Evolution rids losers, not winners...

There's enough support and opportunities for ANY mentally healthy American to finish high school or at least get a GED... Sure it's harder for some but it's really unacceptable to fail as long as you try and are persistent. There's a lot of affirmative action to make it happen and a public education is free...

Even poor people know the value of education. Regression to the mean should be at work. If you're poor it's extra motivation to do well in school (and well means just to pass)... if you can't finish high school or get a GED in the U.S. then blame yourself and not society. Seriously the opportunities are bountiful.

Charlie Sheen would be fine since his dad is an actor...
6cubed is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:18 PM   #96 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
this is the only part of your post worth addressing.

higher taxes are necessary given the demand. that is the argument i am making. the issue of whether or not the line at which the top bracket is established is not the same kind of discussion as the one that argues that more money for group homes is necessary.
take it from somewhere else, take it from the politicians pay increase, take it from make work projects and stupid studies that tell us about how many shelters and beds sit empty at night. Privatize Garbage collection and road work, take the money you save and do whatever you want with it.

I am taxed enough, if I am taxed any more, I become a leach on the system.

Raise my taxes? so you take 60% of my income? Seriously. 60%.

Housing costs are not going down , my bills are not dropping...this well is dry.

This isnt a case of I make 50 million , now I make 25 million.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:25 PM   #97 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,307
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
if you can't finish high school or get a GED in the U.S. then blame yourself and not society.
Maybe it's a problem with the educational system?
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:28 PM   #98 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
take it from somewhere else, take it from the politicians pay increase, take it from make work projects and stupid studies that tell us about how many shelters and beds sit empty at night. Privatize Garbage collection and road work, take the money you save and do whatever you want with it.

I am taxed enough, if I am taxed any more, I become a leach on the system.

Raise my taxes? so you take 60% of my income? Seriously. 60%.

Housing costs are not going down , my bills are not dropping...this well is dry.

This isnt a case of I make 50 million , now I make 25 million.
i don't recall ever suggesting your taxes should be raised. i don't think you are understanding my point.

i am making a broad call to avoid tax reduction until we can find better ways to spend what we have. the demand is enormous, and the spending is not good enough.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:30 PM   #99 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i don't recall ever suggesting your taxes should be raised. i don't think you are understanding my point.

i am making a broad call to avoid tax reduction until we can find better ways to spend what we have. the demand is enormous, and the spending is not good enough.
I am making a broad call to avoid tax increase until we can find better ways to spend what we have. The demand is enormous, and the spending is more than enough, just miss-handled.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 04:33 PM   #100 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,563
Representing:
Default

who is proposing tax increases in canada?
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24