The Money Markets. - Page 3
Old 08-10-2011, 01:33 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Bill Haverchuck,

When I refer to America I meant it's the country that presents the most economic opportunities. Of course no nation can satisfy all of their citizens (maybe North Korea if people can't voice dissent). So yea, there will always be dissidents from a 300,000,000 populace. I don't want to discuss personal experiences because it may not be representative but I believe that you can succeed financially, at least to middle class, in the U.S. with enough persistence. You can also become wealthy through salary positions. If you want make money in Europe for example you pretty much need to be an executive or run your own business. There are a lot of Lithuanians on this forum and if their college age then half of their peers traveled overseas in search of work. Ask them. The U.S. is not as much a old-school boy network as other countries. We also provide so many opportunities to minorities, immigrants, etc. We have a legal framework to do so. Germany is Europe's powerhouse but they discriminate outsiders on these lines (aside Turks perhaps).

To argue against myself, wealth is relative. A college friend of mine works with bonds and made $175k last year. Both of us being from NY makes me feel poor. The more frustrating part is that there are other people in finance who are younger then us and make marginally more money (by working in sales and just being really good at it). If I lived in Lithuania I would be more satisfied making 30k a year because I would be in a higher bracket for my age.

You guys didn't like my economic point about incentives but here's another one. A man was asked if he would be more happy to make 80K if his neighbor made 90k, or if he made 70k if his neighbor made 60k. He answered that he would be happier making 70k. (I think this was from Dan Ariely's book).

Lastly I have August off bc I'm taking pre-MBA classes.. will be a part-time student by month's end so my employer is allowing me to do it. Plus business is slow in August and my boss is traveling all month. I still have to do some work from home.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:36 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Jeff, please tell me what a dividend is.
Careful, tough guy. Or I might ask you to explain again why "science would tell us to cull the weak".
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:36 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The one thing I will not understand and can not contemplate is the disdain for Americans. I will never understand it, it is short sighted an ignorant.
There is a difference between disdain for a system and disdain for its people. Furthermore, the American people are so diverse, it is difficult to generalize about them. People take issue with a particular "type" of American. The type that contributes to the bull shit system.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:38 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Careful, tough guy. Or I might ask you to explain again why "science would tell us to cull the weak".
Yep, lets latch on to a misquote and drag it through the mud after it has been explained a thousand times, that productive.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #45 (permalink)
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There is a difference between disdain for a system and disdain for its people. Furthermore, the American people are so diverse, it is difficult to generalize about them. People take issue with a particular "type" of American. The type that contributes to the bull shit system.
The system isn't perfect. Agreed but it is the same system that has given the world just about every relevant social, and technological advance over the last 50 years.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Yea... last year there was a serious Congressional discussion about raising the capital gain rate (this was after the flash crash and people didn't like short-term traders/speculators).

The problem is that higher capital gains = less investment. This would make the markets less liquid. Pension funds would inexperience greater slippage on equity transactions hurting retirement folks. Less liquidity in Treasuries would result in higher interest rates... that would also increase rates for all loans (mortgages, car loans, student loans etc.)

P.S. LOL at Jeff (probably) for giving a thumbs up to every Bill Haverchuck post.

Every Utopian system failed (e.g. Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, China under Mao). The reality is that capitalism is the best system we have and the U.S. is moving away from it.

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Old 08-10-2011, 01:44 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Yep, lets latch on to a misquote and drag it through the mud after it has been explained a thousand times, that productive.
It's not simply a misquote. You lack an understanding of several topics related to science, yet it doesn't stop you from talking about it. That's the point.

I could just as easily bring up issues related to global warming.

Or how about your lack of knowledge regarding socialist countries? When you over generalized about socialism, and 'trane and I had to point the rate of hapiness in some of those countries, was that just a misquote?

Oh, and I find it funny how you tell someone to be more original, and then almost immediately quote someone else to make your point.

Fucking brilliant.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #48 (permalink)
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The system isn't perfect. Agreed but it is the same system that has given the world just about every relevant social, and technological advance over the last 50 years.
That America is gone.

They have fallen behind in technology, Science, education, innovation, infrastructure, Healthcare.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #49 (permalink)
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The system isn't perfect. Agreed but it is the same system that has given the world just about every relevant social, and technological advance over the last 50 years.
well, that's just completely wrong.

further, if we look back at the way the country was founded and the way the system worked in its formative years, and we add to that the way that it trampled on people and bent nature to its will, it is quite easy to see why it had such swift, massive and prosperous development. but those days are done, and that prospect is not available to other countries. the system is toppling in on itself, and the weak are being squeezed out.

it's not the same game as it was 50 years ago, let alone nearly 250 years ago when it was designed.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:48 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The system isn't perfect. Agreed but it is the same system that has given the world just about every relevant social, and technological advance over the last 50 years.
Actually, no it is not.

When I say "system", I am not talking simply about capitalism. I am talking about the American context in which that capitalism operates. That encompasses a number of issues, which have changed over the past 50 years, and not always for the better.

For one example, the role of the millitary industrial complex has changed. It's not always static.

Even 666 agrees that it's a problem. There are other variables that have, and are, changing as well.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:55 PM   #51 (permalink)
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It's not simply a misquote. You lack an understanding of several topics related to science, yet it doesn't stop you from talking about it. That's the point.

I could just as easily bring up issues related to global warming.

Or how about your lack of knowledge regarding socialist countries? When you over generalized about socialism, and 'trane and I had to point the rate of hapiness in some of those countries, was that just a misquote?

Oh, and I find it funny how you tell someone to be more original, and then almost immediately quote someone else to make your point.

Fucking brilliant.
Simple. Generalized.

You seem to take disagreement as a lack of knowledge, I am smart enough to know what I don't know. I generalized about socialism...sure I did, and i enjoyed being educated to fact aI was unaware of. Thank You. I would present you with your award but we get to do these things and debate in anonymity, which makes it easy sometimes. You just generalized about me.

I used a quote as a thought basis, and then added what it made me believe, I did not use it as evidence. I didn't use a quote to make a point.

I yell at JeffB its what I do, he yells at me, its all good. Perhaps I should have included a winky face. The fact remains that in this forum, the "left" (again for lack of a better term) as consistently bullied and ganged up on people with alternative views.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:58 PM   #52 (permalink)
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That America is gone.

They have fallen behind in technology, Science, education, innovation, infrastructure, Healthcare.
What? That is just false. Your confusing the rest of the world is catching up to America declining. The US is still leaders in these:

- US is still very innovative (granted with an increasing number of foreign inventors). Most importantly we have the capital to fund innovations. Furthermore, see how most technology (aside that derived from the military) is in the private sector and not from government.

- The US has the world's best University system. High schools aren't good though.

- Our healthcare technology is great. Just because the govt doesn't provide universal healthcare doesn't mean anything (it's not a god given right).
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:58 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I disagree. America is still the greatest country in the world. With the highest percentage of world leaders in their respective fields.

They will come out of this, and if they gave a big giant F U to the rest of the world afterwards it would be ok by me
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:58 PM   #54 (permalink)
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That America is gone.

They have fallen behind in technology, Science, education, innovation, infrastructure, Healthcare.
that has more to do with the ineptitude of the government, not the private sector
and U.S. has the best healthcare and higher education (if you can afford it)
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:00 PM   #55 (permalink)
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P.S. LOL at Jeff (probably) for giving a thumbs up to every Bill Haverchuck post.


Probably!

See, we can still share a laugh.

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The reality is that capitalism is the best system we have and the U.S. is moving away from it.
For the record, I don't hate capitalism.

Also, when you say the U.S. is moving away from capitalism, I hope you recognize that it has moved closer to "corporatism" than socialism. Again, there are different contexts in which "big government" can operate. Not all of them look alike.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:04 PM   #56 (permalink)
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that has more to do with the ineptitude of the government, not the private sector
and U.S. has the best healthcare and higher education (if you can afford it)
Their education system is not number one, not even close (last ranking had them 14th in the world in reading, math science). Hell, their dropout rate is over 50%. Sure, you get good education if you're well off....great.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:04 PM   #57 (permalink)
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and U.S. has the best healthcare and higher education (if you can afford it)
I agree with both points. They have the best, if you can afford it. Their poorest people are also much worse off than other countries.

That is why I find it problematic when people talk about any country being the greatest, aside from the fact that nationalism is kind of stupid for other reasons, as well.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:04 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Actually, no it is not.

When I say "system", I am not talking simply about capitalism. I am talking about the American context in which that capitalism operates. That encompasses a number of issues, which have changed over the past 50 years, and not always for the better.

For one example, the role of the millitary industrial complex has changed. It's not always static.

Even 666 agrees that it's a problem. There are other variables that have, and are, changing as well.
The problem is that we are moving AWAY from capitalism. Even Republicans are moving away from free-market capitalism. It was under BUSH that we passed the largest bailout in history (TARP). BUSH spent more money than ALL past presidents COMBINED. He bailed out companies that SHOULD have failed in capitalism.

The US is subsidizing the losers (banks that made stupid decisions, e.g. 30:1 leverage). Nassim Taleb said something very wise along these lines: In America we have capitalism for the winners and socialism for the losers. We should just have capitalism. More importantly let's lower taxes because the government is becoming to burdensome. US govt debt was just downgraded Friday lol... that's the result of socialist policies... big government and overspending on everything. We just cant afford to subsidize everyone and live in a utopia.

Jeff still giving a thumbs up to all of Haverchuck's posts. I'm going to give a thumbs up to EVERYONE... f it.

I think this thread is becoming futile... no one is going to change his/her opinion. Well at least I'm not the only one supporting lower taxes, less government and so forth.

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Old 08-10-2011, 02:06 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Want to know what America provides more than any other country EVER on the face of the planet in the history of human civilization. (Hyperbole)

America provides opportunity.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:09 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Want to know what America provides more than any other country EVER on the face of the planet in the history of human civilization. (Hyperbole)

America provides opportunity.
not for everyone it doesn't. the founding principle that all men are created equally is patently false in many scenarios. that they should be considered equal in terms of value is a lofty aspiration worthy of being held up, but they certainly don't all start on equal footing.

and fwiw, i thumbsed-up bill h 2 times in this thread.
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