The Money Markets. - Page 2
Old 08-10-2011, 11:43 AM   #21 (permalink)
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by a show of hands. who's been hired by a poor person?
Yeah, by paying a little more taxes on only the top 1-2% millionaires/billionaires (most of which don't pay a cent) they'll be poor.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:46 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Ultimately, leave the tax rate for the rich at 18% (all time low btw), maybe raise it to say 20%. But get rid of all the loopholes, tax havens and tax shelters that allow the richest people to avoid paying taxes.


In 1995 the taxe rate was just under 30%, and now they actually pay around 17% (if at all) and is that creating jobs? The last decade in the US when it comes to overall growth has been extremely stagnant since all the tax cuts for the rich.


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Illegal aliens leaving U.S., returning to Mexico for better life?

In case you needed it, here's yet another sign of just how bad the economy is:


Illegal aliens are leaving the United States and returning to Mexico in search of a better life.

You heard that right. One Mexican official tells the Sacramento Bee that Mexico has "become a middle class country" where it's now easier to buy homes on credit, get higher education and find a job."

Not so here in the U.S. where the employment picture remains grim. Just today came announcements from Cisco and Goldman Sachs that they're cutting thousands of jobs.

Plus - a report from payroll processor ADP shows that although the private sector added jobs in July, growth is below what's needed for a steady recovery.

Meanwhile - As we wait for the monthly jobs report Friday, consider this: Mexico's unemployment rate is 4.9%... compared to 9.2% in the U.S. You do the math.

It's estimated that about 300,000 illegal aliens have left California alone since 2008.

Experts say the weaker U.S. economy along with rising deportations and tougher border enforcement means fewer illegal aliens. But - there have also been significant improvements in Mexico's society.

Its economy is growing at 4-5% and, according to the UN, Mexico's average standard of living - which includes things like health, education and per capita income - is higher than in Russia, China and India.

Turns out Mexicans might just have better luck of achieving the American Dream south of the border.

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...r-better-life/

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:04 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:06 PM   #24 (permalink)
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1. would you agree that some people need to be subsidized? people with disbilities? mental health problems? people who have faced serious trauma? people fleeing abuse? immigrants seeking refuge?

2. if yes, what makes you think that rich people would put any money towards that? how do you ensure that your social safety net has enough funds to cover the massive amount of need from these types of areas if it is entirely up to teh good will of people to donate?
Sure, there are people that deserve to be subsidized including the ones that you mentioned. That said, the subsidies must be reasonable. Government should not use tax money to help pay for a defibrillator for a 94 year old to prolong his life by two months.

Government should be able to support itself with 15% from taxes. This 15% can easily support the people that you mentioned, and even regular people that need a temporary safety net (unemployment benefits). It could also pay for other things. If government can't afford something then it likely should be privatized. Rich people wouldn't complain if they paid 15% in taxes. A lot of rich people who do beat the tax code actually do so by donating money to charities in order to deduct from their profits.

There's a large % of society that is perfectly healthy and is content living off the government. There are estimates that up to 40% of the US population DO NOT PAY TAXES... these are comprised of poor people, not the rich, many of (not all) which take advantage of the system. If not take advantage, they become complacent. Economics is about incentives... extend unemployment benefits and an individual is less likely to search for a job at the moment.

Jeff, I'll give a very simple example. Let's say I made $1,000,000. At a 40% tax rate I would owe the government $400,000. That money would go back into the economy right... either by me or the government. The ultimate question is: would you want me to choose how to spend the $400,000 or the government? I believe that I would spend the money more wisely. I would invest it, maybe start a business, etc. If government has that $400,000 I would say that they would spend it on pointless war (influenced by corporate lobbyist), build bridges to nowhere because of politics, subsidize quite a few deadbeats, pay for a 94 year-old's defibrillator, etc.

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:14 PM   #25 (permalink)
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those 40% pay taxes in other ways. land tax (if they own property... i mean if the bank owns it), GST, etc...
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:14 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Completely agree. Amercans now have no clue what paying high taxes means. Especially the wealthy. They currently pay the lowest tax rate and if someone mentions raising that, even a little it's compared to nazi germany. It's complete insanity. Sorry but, imo if they're going to keep the tax rate for the rich so low, make the fuck sure they actually pay that and can't avoid it. The over all political climate and business community is insane right now and the greed and lack of perspective is mind blowing. In my lifetime i can't ever remember a time when politics was so uncompromising and so unrelentingly bipartisan.

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:21 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Jeff you need to get this out of your head that the wealthy don't pay taxes. The VAST MAJORITY of them do... and they pay a ridiculously high amount.

Most of the uber-wealthy that didn't pay any taxes likely enjoyed that benefit because they opened a business and hired x Americans, donated substantial amounts to charities, etc. The number of uber wealthy people that hide their wealth in the Cayman Islands or Switzerland is MINUSCULE. Seriously, 1000 very wealthy people didn't pay taxes in a country populated with 300,000,000 people, so what... it's not that simple. You make it sound like it's some conspiracy and that a lot of wealthy people hide their money from the government. That's not true whatsoever.

Income inequality is part of capitalism. Money begets money... so what. The economy grows and everyone benefits, including the poor. 50 years ago no poor person could get a loan. Seriously you could live in the hood and you would have a higher quality of life then a monarch of a European country in the 16th century. You'd be lucky to live to 40...

Several years ago there was an article about Warren Buffett paying less taxes then his secretary... is that bad? Buffett allocates capital wisely and helps employ people... helps make products cheaper for the consumer, etc.

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:22 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Jeff you need to get this out of your head that the wealthy don't pay taxes. The VAST MAJORITY of them do... and they pay a ridiculously high amount.
No they don't.

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You make it sound like it's some conspiracy and that a lot of wealthy people hide their money from the government.
Well, Duh!
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Sure, there are people that deserve to be subsidized including the ones that you mentioned. That said, the subsidies must be reasonable. Government should not use tax money to help pay for a defibrillator for a 94 year old to prolong his life by two months.

Government should be able to support itself with 15% from taxes. This 15% can easily support the people that you mentioned, and even regular people that need a temporary safety net (unemployment benefits). It could also pay for other things. If government can't afford something then it likely should be privatized. Rich people wouldn't complain if they paid 15% in taxes. A lot of rich people who do beat the tax code actually do so by donating money to charities in order to deduct from their profits.

There's a large % of society that is perfectly healthy and is content living off the government. There are estimates that up to 40% of the US population DO NOT PAY TAXES... these are comprised of poor people, not the rich, many of (not all) which take advantage of the system. If not take advantage, they become complacent. Economics is about incentives... extend unemployment benefits and an individual is less likely to search for a job at the moment.

This line here, makes you sound like the biggest ass in the world. I don't think you've ever known a person on unemployment benefits.

I think what would do you some good is to go to some shelters, go to some working class neighborhoods, talk to people who work in social organizations and then spew this absolute bullshit to them. Because that's what this entire diatribe of yours is. Bullshit.

Are there some people who take advantage of the 'system'? Of course. But are there those who struggle? Yes, and it isn't by choice.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:29 PM   #30 (permalink)
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If government has that $400,000 I would say that they would spend it on pointless war (influenced by corporate lobbyist), build bridges to nowhere because of politics, subsidize quite a few deadbeats, pay for a 94 year-old's defibrillator, etc.
I think the ethical dilemma's of medical care are complicated.

Claudius addressed the "deatbeats" point.

As for pointless war and pork spending, your [America's] problem is not the size of government.

I would argue that bitching about the size of government is missing the real problem. The problem is your country's politics and the smokescreens and ideology that fuels it. There are plenty of countries with "big government" that are very, very happy. Those countries have superior infrastructure and their people are more productive, too.

So, size of government is not the problem. Your politics is the main problem. Your lack of understanding of history is a problem. Your piss poor education system (on average) that allows your people to be constantly played like bitches, is a problem.

Let's call big government "A". If "A" can work really really well in one context, "A" is not necessarily the problem. If it is failing, the problem might really be the context.

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:31 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I think the ethical dilemma's of medical care are complicated.

Claudius addressed the "deatbeats" point.

As for pointless war and pork spending, your [America's] problem is not the size of government.

I would argue that bitching about the size of government is missing the real problem. The problem is your country's politics and the smokescreens and ideology that fuels it. There are plenty of countries with "big government" that are very, very happy. Those countries have superior infrastructure and their people are more productive, too.

So, size of government is not the problem. Your politics is main the problem. Your lack of understanding of history is a problem. Your piss poor education system (on average) that allows your people to be constantly played like bitches, is a problem.

Let's call big government "A". If "A" can work really really well in one context, "A" is not necessarily the problem. If it is failing, the problem might really be the context.

+1

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:40 PM   #32 (permalink)
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This line here, makes you sound like the biggest ass in the world. I don't think you've ever known a person on unemployment benefits.

I think what would do you some good is to go to some shelters, go to some working class neighborhoods, talk to people who work in social organizations and then spew this absolute bullshit to them. Because that's what this entire diatribe of yours is. Bullshit.

Are there some people who take advantage of the 'system'? Of course. But are there those who struggle? Yes, and it isn't by choice.
i think ur rebuttle is a bit harsh. there is nothing wrong with that line. its econ 101, people are greedy and economics IS about incentives. and he didn't talk in absolutes. he said an individual is less likely IF unemployement benefits were extended. bringing up knowing people currently one EI has nothing to do with this

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:48 PM   #33 (permalink)
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America is the world's only superpower for a reason... there's a reason why immigrants flock to the country (idc about a few Mexicans returning to their country so they can live off a self-sustaining farm like people did 100 years ago)... there's a reason the Soviet Union crumbled... criticizing the most successful economy of the 20th century is futile.

The socialist models that show any success is that of Nordic countries. Managing a few million citizens is easier then 300M. Norway's success is largely because of crude oil. Those people also don't free ride the system as much as some Americans do.

I'll let you guys debate economics since you all share the same views (except Windex)... will be fun hearing the same opinions. America is probably the greatest country still on earth. I broke six figures financially a few years after obtaining my B.A. and I'm just in my mid-20s... not many countries give that opportunity in a salary position... and I have all of August off. I'm sick of having to contribute a third of my salary subsidizing the free-riders of society and funding crony political projects.

Unfortunately all empires eventually crumble. Hopefully not in my lifetime...
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:49 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #35 (permalink)
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There a bunch of things going on in here.

Firstly, 6cubed and windex I support fundamentally what you are saying. 6cubed you are giving people like me a bad name with some of those callous lines though.

We have been down this road a million times here in this forum, and while i understand and respect all points of view, I can even understand where people from the "left" for lack of a better term are coming from.

The one thing I will not understand and can not contemplate is the disdain for Americans. I will never understand it, it is short sighted an ignorant.

JeffB, you are a fucking jackass, instead of "clapping" other people posts, try to come up with an original thought. "The rich don't pay taxes in the U.S" this is a joke right?

When it comes to closing the divide of have and have nots , i always refer to Boetcker's "Ten Cannots".


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You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.
We should not be aiming for balance but instead be aiming to raise everyone, which is my at base disagreement with "tax and spend"


FOr those of you enjoying the trashing of Americans I would like to again direct you here.

The Americans - by Gordon Sinclair
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:03 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Gladwell is a hypocritical dick....he is pretentious, outside of being a great storyteller adds no value, because he deals in hyperbole as opposed to facts.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:16 PM   #37 (permalink)
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For the record, I didn't want to make this about America bashing. I like a lot of Americans. And, for the sake of honesty and humility, Canada has its own problems.

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I'll let you guys debate economics since you all share the same views (except Windex)... will be fun hearing the same opinions.
Actually, I disagree with dudes like 'trane when it comes to the finer details. We only agree on the broad strokes. I have a strong feeling 'trane and I would manage a budget differently.

When political positions are really lame, it brings together other people whose views otherwise don't line-up 100%, because decent people cringe at the thought of implementing those lame policies.

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America is probably the greatest country still on earth.
Right. Because all the angry people calling their president a communist and a nazi look really, really happy.

If you're very well-off financially, and your principles are such that the poor treatment of other citizens does not interfere with your hapiness, then it's a great country.

You don't measure the greatness of a country by the lifestyle of a small portion of its citizenry. You have to be very simple minded to think that way.
Other factors come into play, for most people.

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I broke six figures financially a few years after obtaining my B.A. and I'm just in my mid-20s... not many countries give that opportunity in a salary position...
You can do that in other countries. And, in addition to that opportunity, you don't have to worry about American size student loans and obtaining health insurance, either.

There is also some other paths to hapiness that are made much easier in countries other than the U.S.

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and I have all of August off.
Aren't we lucky. Thanks for gracing us with your presence!

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I'm sick of having to contribute a third of my salary subsidizing the free-riders of society and funding crony political projects.
But how does this crony politics happen? Your country is so great!
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:18 PM   #38 (permalink)
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My issue with Gladwell is that his work isn't original... he mainly just rehashes academic works. I guess that's okay as long as he compensates the academics with his lecture profits. You have to be careful if he uses any statistics because his evidence is largely anecdotal.

I agree with some of the ideas intuitively such as hockey players born in x month have a x month advantage in physical maturity and consequently receive better training... I always found that interesting in athletics. A lot of high school athletes benefit more from size rather then skill.

I don't mind paying $15 for his books. I'm a book shopaholic on Amazon and any non-fiction popular texts catch my eye...
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:25 PM   #39 (permalink)
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JeffB, you are a fucking jackass, instead of "clapping" other people posts, try to come up with an original thought. "The rich don't pay taxes in the U.S" this is a joke right?
So now i can't just agree with something someone says? And hand clapping is verboden?

They pay a lot less they they used to and i doubt you can argue with that. As for not paying at all, i've heard that from several sources and i'm only going by what i've read and heard.

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For the 400 U.S. taxpayers with the highest adjusted gross income, the effective federal income tax rate -- what they actually pay -- fell from almost 30 percent in 1995 to just under 17 percent in 2007, according to the IRS. And for the approximately 1.4 million people who make up the top 1 percent of taxpayers, the effective federal income tax rate dropped from 29 percent to 23 percent in 2008. It may seem too fantastic to be true, but the top 400 end up paying a lower rate than the next 1,399,600 or so.



That's not just good luck. It's often the result of hard work, as suggested by some of the strategies in the following pages. Much of the top 400's income is from dividends and capital gains, generated by everything from appreciated real estate -- yes, there is some left -- to stocks and the sale of family businesses. As Warren Buffett likes to point out, since most of his income is from dividends, his tax rate is less than that of the people who clean his office.
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Because many millionaires and billionaires, it was revealed today, don't pay taxes like you and me:

In fact, many don't pay taxes at all. Now, those familiar with the Mack-truck sized loopholes written into the tax code (example: the wealthy who make their money off capital gains only pay a 15 percent tax rate, if that) shouldn't be surprised.

According to a recently released IRS report (PDF), 1,470 millionaires and billionaires paid zero taxes in 2009.

The report states that donations to charity, investment in government bonds, and taking cash from overseas operations has resulted in a legit, $0-tax bill for these high rollers.

Of course, some Democrats in congress have been trying to eliminate tax loopholes and discounts as part of the debt ceiling debate. But while Republicans are gung-ho to cut federal largess in the name of a solvent Republic, they've been quick to protect those who live largest.
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2..._irs_calif.php

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Old 08-10-2011, 01:31 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Jeff, please tell me what a dividend is. I am curious about your take on it, over "capital gains".

stop quoting some shit you found on the web, if can put no thought behind it and are just going to use other people thoughts, I would prefer you walked away from your computer and read a book.

Lets focus on this part of the quote you used.

Quote:
The report states that donations to charity, investment in government bonds, and taking cash from overseas operations has resulted in a legit, $0-tax bill for these high rollers.
Hmm....ok...lets stop giving incentive for the rich to donate and invest in government bonds.

GREAT IDEA!!!!/

Any article that uses the term "high rollers" to describe high income people, can pretty much be used to wipe my ass.

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