May 21, Judgement Day? - Page 7
Old 05-19-2011, 05:03 PM   #121 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Again, I'm not entirely sure what you're responding to, so I want to clarify something, although I'm NOT accusing you of anything.

Look at my full paragraph:



I'm saying there might be an answer; it''s just that there is no consensus right now. All throughout history, there have been problems that science couldn't answer, but it eventually did. So, just because we can't answer it now, does not mean it won't be answerable.

Nobody should make generalizations about what science says to do with those people you described, but it might be able to help us better understand what types of actions improve our overall well being in particular contexts. And maybe there is more than one answer, depending on the context. But people definitely can't say science would tell us to ditch em'.
I was making the same point, science has no answer (yes right now) sure I shouldn't speak for science ...point taken...but there is much evidence in the animal kingdom to support me.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 05:03 PM   #122 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,756
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
just to clarify, and to put this in the context of what i was discussing, does this mean you favour faith, or the absence of debate?
I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Maybe it's just me being lucky with the Catholic schools I went to. Religion classes were entirely about debate. And the little bit I know about many different religions, debate and questioning are extremely important. Again - maybe it's just what has attracted my attention more than other aspects. I also find ritual to be a very important human enterprise, without needing to define it's meaning in strict terms, although I recognize that is essential for some people, and that some people see faith as their only means to living out their lives. I find the existence of the dichotomy very sad.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 05:15 PM   #123 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
but there is much evidence in the animal kingdom to support me.
Are you still talking about it being rational to cull certain people or whatever?

If so, you can't compare humans to other animals in all respects. The resources at our disposal are much greater. Furthermore, given the difference in degree to which our species is aware of its surrounding and events taking places in our lives, the mental consequences of our decisions and actions are greater. Other animals do not have the same degree of freedom that we do, in the sense that our resources give us options. Nature does not afford those options to other species. We're lucky.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 05-19-2011 at 05:18 PM.
Bill Haverchuck is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 05:17 PM   #124 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Are you still talking about it being rational to cull certain people or whatever?

If so, you can't compare humans to other animals in all respects. The resources at our disposal are much greater. Furthermore, given the difference in degree to which our species is aware of its surrounding and events taking places in our lives, the mental consequences of our decisions and actions are greater.
Great we agree.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 05:50 PM   #125 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,700
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Maybe it's just me being lucky with the Catholic schools I went to. Religion classes were entirely about debate. And the little bit I know about many different religions, debate and questioning are extremely important. Again - maybe it's just what has attracted my attention more than other aspects. I also find ritual to be a very important human enterprise, without needing to define it's meaning in strict terms, although I recognize that is essential for some people, and that some people see faith as their only means to living out their lives. I find the existence of the dichotomy very sad.
debate within a very narrow set of boundaries is not open debate, and it leads to very restrictive ways to organize people. faith restricts possibilities, again, by definition. this is what i am opposing. if those faith-based beliefs were kept to an extraordinarily personal understanding and had no bearing upon the ways in which people interact with each other i would have no problem with it. but that almost never happens.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 11:10 PM   #126 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,756
Representing:
Default

Oh there were no narrow boundaries in our debates. that was the case until I got stuck in a religion class with a 45 year old virgin that insisted we were going to he'll if we didn't attend church every Sunday. she went everyday herself. I dropped that class. Up until then I was presented with questions concerning equality, justice, how a conscience develops within us, and the value of finding meaning in our lives - and open discussion was pretty much all there was.

I was taught biology by a former nun. she was a great teacher that made photosynthesis come alive, and lead us through evolutionary theory so that it felt like we were piecing together the puzzle ourselves. It's a shame that so many kids are getting spoon fed such important ideas as though they are toxic.

anyway - I don't understand why extraordinary personal understanding should not play a part in relationships or culture or forming community. It seems like an odd idea to try to impose such restrictions. We just see religion very differently. I've experienced very negative and very positive aspects. The negative aspects usually revolved around power being exercised and justified and abused. I have no time for any of that. But I completely respect those that see faith as a way to approach big questions. To me faith is all about questions and doubts, without limits. And beliefs are about answers. I worry about any beliefs that do not recognize their own limitations. That is where you get both bad science and bad religion. And when limits are recognized as science and religion in essence call for, then human possibilities can be separated from the power structures that attempt to restrict possibilities.

I personally find too much of science and too much of religion weighed down by accumulated detritus. I would love to see a return to the core principles that sparked all such disciplines and a complete restructuring of societies based on real needs. Make minutes 100 seconds or whatever is deemed particularly meaningful today, instead of what made sense for people thousands of years ago. Define progress by what actually works within the obvious material limits we are saddled with, instead of being limited by so many old ideas of the past that progress must somehow be built upon, even though their meaning has gone stale while put to work holding up multiple delusions. That would make me happy. Power messes it all up, and I recognize the need to understand how power works, but I refuse to allow power to define meaning. I like my delusions to be my own while remaining open to understanding as much as I can.

OK I'll stop now.

Last edited by LX; 05-19-2011 at 11:38 PM.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 12:22 AM   #127 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,700
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Oh there were no narrow boundaries in our debates. that was the case until I got stuck in a religion class with a 45 year old virgin that insisted we were going to he'll if we didn't attend church every Sunday. she went everyday herself. I dropped that class. Up until then I was presented with questions concerning equality, justice, how a conscience develops within us, and the value of finding meaning in our lives - and open discussion was pretty much all there was.

I was taught biology by a former nun. she was a great teacher that made photosynthesis come alive, and lead us through evolutionary theory so that it felt like we were piecing together the puzzle ourselves. It's a shame that so many kids are getting spoon fed such important ideas as though they are toxic.

anyway - I don't understand why extraordinary personal understanding should not play a part in relationships or culture or forming community. It seems like an odd idea to try to impose such restrictions. We just see religion very differently. I've experienced very negative and very positive aspects. The negative aspects usually revolved around power being exercised and justified and abused. I have no time for any of that. But I completely respect those that see faith as a way to approach big questions. To me faith is all about questions and doubts, without limits. And beliefs are about answers. I worry about any beliefs that do not recognize their own limitations. That is where you get both bad science and bad religion. And when limits are recognized as science and religion in essence call for, then human possibilities can be separated from the power structures that attempt to restrict possibilities.

I personally find too much of science and too much of religion weighed down by accumulated detritus. I would love to see a return to the core principles that sparked all such disciplines and a complete restructuring of societies based on real needs. Make minutes 100 seconds or whatever is deemed particularly meaningful today, instead of what made sense for people thousands of years ago. Define progress by what actually works within the obvious material limits we are saddled with, instead of being limited by so many old ideas of the past that progress must somehow be built upon, even though their meaning has gone stale while put to work holding up multiple delusions. That would make me happy. Power messes it all up, and I recognize the need to understand how power works, but I refuse to allow power to define meaning. I like my delusions to be my own while remaining open to understanding as much as I can.

OK I'll stop now.
you seem to be putting forward the position that faith somehow increases openness in some way. i take that from your point that "faith is all about questions and doubts, without limits". this is not how i have ever seen faith defined. to me faith (and religion) are different from spirituality.

i would argue that none of the 'good' things you mentioned in that post, and there were many, are the sole property of faith (or of religion).

faith is conviction in something that is not supported by proof. there may be many connections and points of agreement between spirituality and faith, but they are not the same thing. when it comes to social interactions in which we would come to disagree and in that we both have something to lose or gain, we should both be subject to providing evidence to support our position. faith is not evidence. a position based on faith alone should have no bearing upon me.

this is not to deny personal exploration, soul searching, questioning, or imagination. it is in fact to encourage it. i really don't know what you meant by this:

Quote:
I don't understand why extraordinary personal understanding should not play a part in relationships or culture or forming community. It seems like an odd idea to try to impose such restrictions.
again, i have never tried to argue that you should never explore something. i am only arguing against the social and political consequences of convictions based only on faith. it's easy when i agree on something with someone who's belief stands in faith alone, but impossible when i don't. in case where we both have something to lose or gain, i am not the one posing the restriction on our interaction.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 07:38 AM   #128 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,756
Representing:
Default

I agree that the good stuff I listed is not solely rooted in matters of faith or religion. But I do see a connection between disciplines.

and of course where there is some form of proof, or an argument to be made positing some proof, then there is no place for faith. That would be where faith is put in opposition to reason for no good purpose. I would say that faith is a means of approaching that which can not arrive at any form of proof, and must never be absent of doubt, nor be asserted as the sole means of arriving at a conclusion.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 08:27 AM   #129 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I agree that the good stuff I listed is not solely rooted in matters of faith or religion. But I do see a connection between disciplines.

and of course where there is some form of proof, or an argument to be made positing some proof, then there is no place for faith. That would be where faith is put in opposition to reason for no good purpose. I would say that faith is a means of approaching that which can not arrive at any form of proof, and must never be absent of doubt, nor be asserted as the sole means of arriving at a conclusion.
I have been trying to say that for 5 pages. thanks
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 09:09 AM   #130 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,700
Representing:
Default

if we don't have a proof, why would we assume that one is not possible? as soon as we switch from belief and spirituality to faith, we admit that proof is impossible. that is not an acceptable basis under which to approach human interaction, since it denies the possibility of achieving a real answer at a later point. i can't think of anything that "must never be absent of doubt", nor can i think of anything where the sole means of arriving at a conclusion should be the conviction that proof is unnecessary. talk about imposing restrictions on human interaction...

Last edited by 'trane; 05-20-2011 at 09:12 AM.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #131 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,700
Representing:
Default

on a practical level, i would also argue that faith is typically relied on in all sorts of contexts where proof is possible, and it is used to deny that proof. if you are going to limit the contexts in which faith is applicable to a very small number of things, then, again, you are talking about a very different kind of faith than our world most often sees.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 04:57 PM   #132 (permalink)
is not changing this sig until we win a playoff series

everyones a critic
 
th3answ3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,347
Representing:
Default

so apparently, for 6 months, we will see hell through natural disasters. October 21, it ends???
th3answ3r is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 05:13 PM   #133 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,756
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by th3answ3r View Post
so apparently, for 6 months, we will see hell through natural disasters. October 21, it ends???
Yeah - but it never ends.

Apparently the dead sea scrolls provide some indication that Jesus was originally part of a jewish sect that was one of many proclaiming the end of days. These guys kept getting their asses handed to them by powerful armies, and in taking a nihilistic approach they could motivate themselves to keep on fighting while seeing themselves as reaping the rewards of righteousness when the world ended. It was trick to make a lose/lose proposition seem like a win/win with nothing to lose.

The New Testament was a clean break from all of that, partly as a means of survival. Peace was really the only option once so many declarations of apocalypse fell flat. Seeing might as being right, and continuing with the eye for an eye dogma, was not going to serve anybody, and wishing for the world to end signaled the level of desperation at hand. A new way of seeing things was borne out of necessity.

But the end of days crowd never went away for good, particularly among the desperate losers of the world.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 05:44 PM   #134 (permalink)
is not changing this sig until we win a playoff series

everyones a critic
 
th3answ3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,347
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Yeah - but it never ends.

Apparently the dead sea scrolls provide some indication that Jesus was originally part of a jewish sect that was one of many proclaiming the end of days. These guys kept getting their asses handed to them by powerful armies, and in taking a nihilistic approach they could motivate themselves to keep on fighting while seeing themselves as reaping the rewards of righteousness when the world ended. It was trick to make a lose/lose proposition seem like a win/win with nothing to lose.

The New Testament was a clean break from all of that, partly as a means of survival. Peace was really the only option once so many declarations of apocalypse fell flat. Seeing might as being right, and continuing with the eye for an eye dogma, was not going to serve anybody, and wishing for the world to end signaled the level of desperation at hand. A new way of seeing things was borne out of necessity.

But the end of days crowd never went away for good, particularly among the desperate losers of the world.
so theres no rapture? christians going to heaven or w.e
th3answ3r is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 05:55 PM   #135 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,756
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by th3answ3r View Post
so theres no rapture? christians going to heaven or w.e
as an idea it obviously still exists and persists, but thousands of times over it has failed to materialize. It's basically cultish and was decried as such as far back as the new testament.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 08:03 PM   #136 (permalink)
is camped out in the corner

Senior Member
 
Ex2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,245
Representing:
Default

Testing

1 2 3

we are still here ladies and gents...
Ex2k is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 08:22 PM   #137 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 76,175
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex2k View Post
Testing

1 2 3

we are still here ladies and gents...

Last edited by jeffb; 05-21-2011 at 08:24 PM.
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 08:36 PM   #138 (permalink)
#NorthernUprising

Next year...
 
js12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: T.O.
Posts: 5,581
Representing:
Default

Quote:
If the world were going to end today — as some Christian evangelicals insist — then chances are good that Qinya Liu would already have picked up on the signs.

As an assistant professor of geophysics at the University of Toronto, Liu understands the mechanics of the planet, but she doesn’t seem inordinately concerned about fire and brimstone consuming her neighbourhood any time soon.

“I haven’t seen in recent history any hazards that could wipe out life on Earth.”

In Liu’s view, there are five main mechanisms by which the planet could come to a sudden and sorrowful demise: Meteorites, volcanoes, earthquakes, nuclear wars and attacks by extra-terrestrials.

Liu doesn’t believe that any of them is about to go critical: “I’m not writing my will yet"
The world will end. Just not today? - thestar.com

I love this part of the article:

Quote:
Volcanoes?

True, a massive volcanic eruption near Lake Toba in Indonesia is thought to have occurred around 70,000 years ago, causing a long ash-enshrouded winter that reduced the planet’s human population to 10,000 individuals or so.

But that constitutes just one such eruption in the more than 100,000-year history of human existence. It could happen again. But, then, Rob Ford could also buy himself a bike.
js12 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 08:40 PM   #139 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 76,175
Representing:
Default



jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 08:42 PM   #140 (permalink)
#NorthernUprising

Next year...
 
js12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: T.O.
Posts: 5,581
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post


Nice.

Poor bike though.
js12 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24