May 21, Judgement Day? - Page 4
Old 05-18-2011, 06:52 PM   #61 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

and that's fine benzo, as long as that faith, and the beliefs and suppositions (including morality) that come from it, have no bearing on anyone else.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 07:01 PM   #62 (permalink)
pensive

feat. Otto Neurath
 
Ligeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,054
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
The only relevance to the value of faith, is what I deem it has to me. Its value to you is irrelivant.

I choose faith in a god because it feels right, no more no less. You seem to be trying to set me up to trip myself up, but it is not an agrument that can be run. It can't be rationally argued.
What you say here reads, to me, very different than what you were saying before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo
I do not discount a higher power because of the proof of sciences, I believe in a higher power because of the existence of science.
That sounds more like you believe there is a rational reason to believe in god (namely, the existence of science). I think that is a fair read on my part.

I'm not trying to set you up, and I find that accusation a bit of an offensive question of character and motive. I'm not particularly offended by it, but I hope you understand how it could reasonably be taken that way. Intellectual mistakes are one thing; some sort of malice is quite another. I feel that I explicitly made clear why I was interested in following that chain of reasoning. I also feel that you invited comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo
Discuss.
So let's not make this out like I'm being unfair or attacking you in some way, particularly when I feel that I've made an effort to be measured and fair in my responses.
Ligeia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 07:11 PM   #63 (permalink)
........

Senior Member
 
MrClutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 2,358
Representing:
Default

honestly there isnt no judgement day coming up. first there was 2012 and now this
MrClutch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 07:43 PM   #64 (permalink)
full of beans

Senior Member
 
Beans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 3,467
Representing:
Default

I hope Slayer has a big concert that day.

The guy who started "Eternal Earth-Bound Pets" (LINK) says that in the past, when Rapture predictions didn't come true, it just reinforced peoples' faith. I guess they think that they prevented it by praying.

Last edited by Beans; 05-18-2011 at 09:35 PM.
Beans is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 11:55 PM   #65 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,287
Representing:
Default

Lig, trying to do this from my IPAD not easy can't quote.

Nowhere did I say my reasoning is rational. It isn't just the existence of science I used that as the example because it was being talked about.

I was not trying to imply that you were being unfair or attacking, just that you were trying to find a rational train of thought to argue an admittedly irrational belief on my part.

If it sounded snooty.....I apologize, I was simply trying to point out that this is not an argument that you can suss out.


Trane, my beliefs are my own, I have distaste for all organized faiths.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 12:05 AM   #66 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post


Trane, my beliefs are my own, I have distaste for all organized faiths.
i don't think that's the issue i'm talking about. whether or not it comes from an organization or from yourself, if it is irrational and based on nothing but the fact that it makes you feel better inside, it shouldn't be considered as a reasonable social and political voice. how can any real and substantive social debate take place when one side bases their view of he world on nothing but a guess?

now it could be that your spirituality and belief in some kind of god has no bearing whatsoever on your moral and social behaviours and expectations, but i don't know how i see that this is possible. i suppose if you reduce 'god' to a creator status and leave it at that...
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 07:05 AM   #67 (permalink)
LX
Less is more. More or less. But mostly less. Or should that be more?

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 26,635
Representing:
Default

What gets to be a reasonable social voice? my concern is that technology ends up usurping control over our lives. We have not proven ourselves to be capable of weighing the benefits and the negative repercussions of technological developments in deciding on our future. We allow technology to define the path to our judgment day, without ever simply trying to look forward and saying no.

Science does allow for a great deal of discovery and is vital. But the more we discover, the more we find out how much we do not know. I hardly see how it can be so wrong for communities to approach the unknown with some form of faith that allows each person to feel empowered while faced with so much uncertainty, and yet humble enough to not play god. At the moment I see humanity placing their faith in machines and being foolish in seeing them as their own benign creations that will ultimately serve our own ends. I don't think it provides any better balance than any other healthy, non-dogmatic belief systems.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 09:11 AM   #68 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

putting your faith in machines isn't science or reason, it's just another example of faith. i think you are equating science and reason with machines, which is not at all what i am talking about. what i mean is that having no basis upon which to make a social or political argument besides a wild guess that you decided to believe firmly does nothing but stifle debate and discussion. how can we expect to make progress if we remove the opportunity to weigh real possibilities by replacing it with guesses and flights of imagination?
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 09:13 AM   #69 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 69,985
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
putting your faith in machines isn't science or reason, it's just another example of faith. i think you are equating science and reason with machines, which is not at all what i am talking about. what i mean is that having no basis upon which to make a social or political argument besides a wild guess that you decided to believe firmly does nothing but stifle debate and discussion. how can we expect to make progress if we remove the opportunity to weigh real possibilities by replacing it with guesses and flights of imagination?
Great points Arthur
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 09:20 AM   #70 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

ehhhhh....
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 09:46 AM   #71 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,287
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i don't think that's the issue i'm talking about. whether or not it comes from an organization or from yourself, if it is irrational and based on nothing but the fact that it makes you feel better inside, it shouldn't be considered as a reasonable social and political voice. how can any real and substantive social debate take place when one side bases their view of he world on nothing but a guess?

now it could be that your spirituality and belief in some kind of god has no bearing whatsoever on your moral and social behaviours and expectations, but i don't know how i see that this is possible. i suppose if you reduce 'god' to a creator status and leave it at that...
Interesting you feel this way.

Do I believe in a separation of church and state? ABSOLUTELY.

So where do you get your morals? Where do you get your political voice? The protection of our less fortunate is not some scientific math equation, quite the opposite. Science would tell us to leave the weak behind you ensure our survival, yet I know you believe the exact opposite? Why is that?


I believe in a "right" and a "wrong", I suppose I got those values from my upbringing but that upbringing is based on Judeo Christian dogmas for sure.

When it comes to doing or not doing certain things, like "cheating on my wife", "hiring prostitutes every wednesday" or "helping someone in need of it" it is not for fear of some kind of "political" or " "criminal" charge from the government. It is out of a belief that it is wrong, that I just can't quite explain.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 10:00 AM   #72 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

actually, it's from a quite rational perspective that we are all better off if we work as an efficient collective rather than competing individuals. i won't say that i am objectively correct, but i can (and have) put forward the argument that supports that view. i will admit a basic moral understanding that killing is wrong, so culls of the weak are ruled out and they are accepted as part of the collective. i think a rational argument as to why killing is bad is possible, but it is also widely held among humans, so trying to find the origin of it is difficult. that doesn't mean, though, that i accept the judeo-christian tradition without analysis and the application of reason.

it's not the moral positions i oppose, it's the acceptance of them without analysis.

Last edited by 'trane; 05-19-2011 at 10:03 AM.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 10:18 AM   #73 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 10:31 AM   #74 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,287
Representing:
Default

Did you watch this??
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 12:04 PM   #75 (permalink)
on the outside, looking in.

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,331
Representing:
Default

i've watched it before. i didn't watch it this morning, if that is what you are asking.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 12:36 PM   #76 (permalink)
far away

Senior Member
 
archie63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Panama City
Posts: 981
Representing:
Default

There's nothing wrong with science...you know I prefer...between air conditioning and the Pope i chose air conditioning.
archie63 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 01:51 PM   #77 (permalink)
LX
Less is more. More or less. But mostly less. Or should that be more?

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 26,635
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
putting your faith in machines isn't science or reason, it's just another example of faith. i think you are equating science and reason with machines, which is not at all what i am talking about. what i mean is that having no basis upon which to make a social or political argument besides a wild guess that you decided to believe firmly does nothing but stifle debate and discussion. how can we expect to make progress if we remove the opportunity to weigh real possibilities by replacing it with guesses and flights of imagination?
I didn't mean to equate science and reason with machines. I meant to show how much reason and science proves feckless when it comes to formulating any kind of policy regarding technologies that will quickly surpass our own abilities as well as opening up the possibility to alter life on this planet more than ever before.

Reason has been used in processes which have fucked up numerous biospheres. At the same time, flights of fancy have lead to some important discoveries. Completely denying a voice to that which may appear, and might actually be, irrational, is to me, denying a human influence.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 01:54 PM   #78 (permalink)
the fighter of the Nightman

Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Cherry Bomb
 
Barracuda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 7,962
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by archie63 View Post
There's nothing wrong with science...you know I prefer...between air conditioning and the Pope i chose air conditioning.
What if there was Pope Brand Air Conditioning?
Barracuda is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 02:06 PM   #79 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 69,985
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda View Post
What if there was Pope Brand Air Conditioning?
Is that what he does with all the pedophiles at the vatican. Put them to work making air conditioners?

jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 02:13 PM   #80 (permalink)
Canada b-ball, 2020 Olympic Gold Medalists

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,649
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
Did you watch this??
Read Harris' book; it's more detailed. In that TED talk, he leaves himself open to some criticisms that are much better addressed in the written format.

That reminds me, I should go to the book thread since I just fininshed reading several.
Bill Haverchuck is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24