May 21, Judgement Day? - Page 3
Old 05-18-2011, 02:56 PM   #41 (permalink)
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This is where you start to sound silly.

1 - apes is a classifactory term. There are different types of apes. Depending on which academic you speak to, humans are apes.

2 - What I think you meant to say is "so u think we came from monkeys?"

That is the standard bullshit line. It's a strawman, since that's not what scientists state. It's unfortunate that some adult filled your head with that non-sense. We share a common ancestor with monkeys. There is an important difference between evolving from monkeys and having a common ancestor.

3 - Understand evolution before you dismiss it. If you have doubts, read about it directly from scientists. Don't assume your parents or minister or whomever is giving you an accurate depiction of what scientists claim. Go directly to the source to find out what scientists really assert.

4 - You're showing why some people are annoyed by religion. If not for religion, why else would young kids, like yourself, get pulled into misinformation about science?

5 - I don't know what the fuck you're talking about regarding humans losing our hair. Who told you losing hair disproves evolution? That's just silly. It is totally explainable. Furthermore, I have hair in many places other than my head, including a few where I'd prefer it didn't grow.

6 - Lists are still awesome.
the poster above said believing in God is like believing in an elephant riding a balloon so far high we cant see it. so basically implying believing in something non-existent. so my reply with the evolution thing was the purpose of being ignorant and i didn't care for getting into the nitty gritty of the theory of evolution.

regards to ur #5 point. isn't one part of the theory of evolution saying how species adapt and the survival of the fittest? so if our ancestor was monkeys, who had hair all over their bodies, and would stop growing at a certain length. meaning u didn't need to constantly cut it. then why thru adaptation did we lose all of our hair execpt the ones on our head which keeps growing unless we cut it. why didn't we lose it all together? but instead, having long hair makes us easier to be caught by prey, caught in something, etc.
thats what i meant by that.
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:59 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Both your arguments are flawed.

One does not disprove the other, so this will go on for another 2120938210398 years
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:02 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The argument i was geting at it. Too believe in God, is similar to believing in And elephant on a balloon floating so high you cannot see it, in that you cannot prove or disapprove either of thier existence. If i said i believed in a elephant on a balloon as the maker. What arguement would you have to say it isnt true.

One thing i do believe in, are the life lessons and morals of the bible. I will not take that away from religion.

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Old 05-18-2011, 03:14 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:39 PM   #45 (permalink)
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The argument i was geting at it. Too believe in God, is similar to believing in And elephant on a balloon floating so high you cannot see it, in that you cannot prove or disapprove either of thier existence. If i said i believed in a elephant on a balloon as the maker. What arguement would you have to say it isnt true.

One thing i do believe in, are the life lessons and morals of the bible. I will not take that away from religion.
fair enough. it just rubbed me the wrong way when you assumed i believed the earth was created in 7 days and is 2000 years old just because i was christian.
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:47 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:02 PM   #47 (permalink)
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fair enough. it just rubbed me the wrong way when you assumed i believed the earth was created in 7 days and is 2000 years old just because i was christian.
I was reared up as Salvation Army, going to church every sunday. Looking back, I feel like i was somewhat brainwashed into all of it.

If I am wrong about this whole god thing. When i die and I am trying to get into heaven, I will have egg on my face for sure. lol.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:19 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Guys, we only have 3 days left. Let's all hug.
I'm down for singing a little kumbaya if you guys are.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:26 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
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who are you to make fun of my beliefs? i'm not forcing my beliefs onto anyone and everyone can believe whatever they want. but why think what you belive in is so much more legit then others?
Are there any beliefs deserving of ridicule? If so, what sort of criteria determines which are deserving and which are not?

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and if ur gonna comment on the subject, at least be somewhat knowledgeable on the subject. very few take the bible literally, and i say very few because theres always someone out there, you can never say no one.
We need to qualify what you mean by very few and what you mean by literal (does literal mean every single word, or just a vast majority?). In the nation with the greatest number of Christian believers, ~40% of the populace believe that man was created in his present form by god in the last 10,000 years.

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so u think we came from apes? why then, through the theory of evolution, did we lose all of our hair except the ones on our head? which goes against that very theory?
How is that a prediction of evolution?
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:52 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Are there any beliefs deserving of ridicule? If so, what sort of criteria determines which are deserving and which are not?



We need to qualify what you mean by very few and what you mean by literal (does literal mean every single word, or just a vast majority?). In the nation with the greatest number of Christian believers, ~40% of the populace believe that man was created in his present form by god in the last 10,000 years.



How is that a prediction of evolution?
1. my post was a reply, so don't comment only based on my reply without reading the original post i was reply to

2. ur kinda late to the convo, so keep reading and this doesn't need to be discussed any further

Last edited by powerfulpanda; 05-18-2011 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:52 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I am not a religious man, I believe in a god (the small g is intentional) as I have no idea who/what or why god is. I believe trying to understand the universe on a spiritual level is like trying to explain trigonometry to an ant. we are incapable of understanding it.
Yet you obviously believe you have some understanding of it, given that you've identified as a believer. If we are, in principle, incapable of understanding it, and you reject religious revelation, I'm confused as to what justifies your belief.

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People used to believe in magic, and Gods that caused lightening etc...we know that is not true, science can disprove them.
At the risk of being a stickler, I would say that science cannot disprove those claims. Science gives us answers which we agree with because of other philosophical positions which are not, themselves, empirical in nature. For example, we believe that lightning is a natural product because we have a plausible explanation without god (again, given a whole background of philosophical positions), and we follow Ockham's razor (another philosophical position: don't introduce more entities to explain something that can be explained with less) to its conclusion. We can't actually disprove that god did those things unless we can also prove that there is no way for god to have done it in a way that would not make his interaction obvious to us (though you are obviously left with the question of what positive evidence do we have for the claim that god did it if we can't detect his interaction in any way, as I suggested above).

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The better question to ask is, "why does the science work?"

I do not discount a higher power because of the proof of sciences, I believe in a higher power because of the existence of science.

Discuss
Indeed, that is one of my primary interests (along with "does science work?"). Yet I do not follow your chain of reasoning (sounds like the Transcendental Argument for the existence of God). Perhaps, indeed, we are not aware of what grounds science (or logic, or morality). It doesn't follow from that claim that god must necessarily exist. That seems like an argument from ignorance or personal incredulity (and perhaps even false dichotomy): "I don't know another answer; therefore, god."

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Old 05-18-2011, 05:04 PM   #53 (permalink)
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late to the convo....
In fairness, only one of my questions you have previously answered. My apologies and I will follow up from what you posted there:

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regards to ur #5 point. isn't one part of the theory of evolution saying how species adapt and the survival of the fittest? so if our ancestor was monkeys, who had hair all over their bodies, and would stop growing at a certain length. meaning u didn't need to constantly cut it. then why thru adaptation did we lose all of our hair execpt the ones on our head which keeps growing unless we cut it. why didn't we lose it all together? but instead, having long hair makes us easier to be caught by prey, caught in something, etc.
thats what i meant by that.
First of all, are you aware that the theory of evolution consists not only of natural selection, but also horizontal gene transfer, and genetic drift? So looking for "survival of the fittest" function in everything is, while interesting scientifically, not necessarily the best way to answer your question.

Second, I will answer your question. I do not think, at present, there is any meaningful evidence regarding how our present hair has evolved. I am probably showing ignorance of the literature, but I don't care to look it up at the moment. I especially do not believe that evolution predicts that our hair would stay the same as it was before. We could easily construct some predictions as to why that might've happened, but that's a waste of time.

What I really want to hit on is the logic of your argument. It is kind of like saying that unless you know everything that happened in World War II, you can't say that a war happened, certain parties were involved, and certain events took place. Certainly we do not have a comprehensive history of biological life, but does it follow from that statement that we have no justification for tentatively agreeing to some larger picture questions? I don't think it does.

I'll also re-iterate: even if it were the case that evolution were not true, that is not sufficient grounds for believing that we were created by a god. There must be some positive case for this being so, rather than just forming a negative case against evolution. This is perhaps the central issue for Intelligent Design proponents: they are not engaging in any positive scientific program.
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:21 PM   #54 (permalink)
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originally i took exception to b55bgc when he assumed i believed the earth was created in 7 days and is 2000 years old just because i was christian. that came off as ignorant so i replied with the point about evolution with the purpose of being ignorant to prove a point. the point wasn't actually to use the theory of evolution as a part of my argument so thats why i might have not gone over that clearly. if u understand what i mean?

and Bill H has already brought up the flaws in my posts about the theory of evolution and that was my reply more or less

anyways, things were cleared up between me and b55bgc which is why i said it didn't need to be discussed further
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:57 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Yet you obviously believe you have some understanding of it, given that you've identified as a believer. If we are, in principle, incapable of understanding it, and you reject religious revelation, I'm confused as to what justifies your belief.
Nothing justifies it. By definition "faith", which has nothing to do with religion.



Quote:
At the risk of being a stickler, I would say that science cannot disprove those claims. Science gives us answers which we agree with because of other philosophical positions which are not, themselves, empirical in nature. For example, we believe that lightning is a natural product because we have a plausible explanation without god (again, given a whole background of philosophical positions), and we follow Ockham's razor (another philosophical position: don't introduce more entities to explain something that can be explained with less) to its conclusion. We can't actually disprove that god did those things unless we can also prove that there is no way for god to have done it in a way that would not make his interaction obvious to us (though you are obviously left with the question of what positive evidence do we have for the claim that god did it if we can't detect his interaction in any way, as I suggested above).
No arguments here, that was kind of my point.


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Indeed, that is one of my primary interests (along with "does science work?"). Yet I do not follow your chain of reasoning (sounds like the Transcendental Argument for the existence of God). Perhaps, indeed, we are not aware of what grounds science (or logic, or morality). It doesn't follow from that claim that god must necessarily exist. That seems like an argument from ignorance or personal incredulity (and perhaps even false dichotomy): "I don't know another answer; therefore, god."
Again your trying to "prove" the flaw in
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I do not discount a higher power because of the proof of sciences, I believe in a higher power because of the existence of science.
it is not a mathematical equation with a logical conclusion. The key words were "I believe", so to tie this back to my first point, my "argument" for lack of a better term absolutely comes from ignorance and personal incredulity, as by definition my hypothesis can't be proven.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:20 PM   #56 (permalink)
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that came off as ignorant so i replied with the point about evolution with the purpose of being ignorant to prove a point. the point wasn't actually to use the theory of evolution as a part of my argument so thats why i might have not gone over that clearly. if u understand what i mean?
No, it wasn't really clear what you were doing. It seemed like you were suggesting that humans did not evolve from an ancestor.

Anyways, I have a hunch you're a younger forum member ,so don't feel bad if you really were confused about evolution. It's not necessarily your fault if it wasn't explained to you. I'm an adult and I only know the very broad strokes.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:23 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Nothing justifies it. By definition "faith", which has nothing to do with religion.

No arguments here, that was kind of my point.

Again your trying to "prove" the flaw in it is not a mathematical equation with a logical conclusion. The key words were "I believe", so to tie this back to my first point, my "argument" for lack of a better term absolutely comes from ignorance and personal incredulity, as by definition my hypothesis can't be proven.
Of what value is faith? How do you choose what to have faith in and what not to have faith in? Why choose faith in god over faith in some naturalistic account?

Your proposition that "[you] believe in god because of the existence of science" is false, by your own admittance.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:40 PM   #58 (permalink)
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The funny thing is, I can't imagine existence without explanation through discovery. What kind of a fucking existence would it be if everything was just random shit happening around you that had no way of being understood? What kind of "material" or "existence" would that be? I can't conceive of that. The fact that science exists does nothing to convince me that God (or gods) exist.


And, although I couldn't really articulate it, I remember thinking about these things when I was like 10 or 11. How can there ever be nothing? There always had to be something., even if it was some form of matter/energy. I can imagine existence without intelligence being around, but I can't imagine there being just nothing. But for me, that seemed to suggest there didn't need to be a God. Shit just is because it is. I don't need a first cause for the first "existence" of anything, whether it be quantum fluctuations or whatever. How could there be no shit?

Also, I frequently wonder if there was all kinds of shit before our universe. I mean, once you pass 10 billion years, what's another 10 and another 10 and another 10? I find the possibility of a multi-verse absolutely fascinating. Now that shit is more interesting than floods and talking snakes and goofy bible crap.

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Old 05-18-2011, 06:47 PM   #59 (permalink)
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One thing i do believe in, are the life lessons and morals of the bible. I will not take that away from religion.
I'll take it away from religion. There is some fucked up shit in the bible.

There are much better ways to learn about morality.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:48 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Of what value is faith? How do you choose what to have faith in and what not to have faith in? Why choose faith in god over faith in some naturalistic account?

Your proposition that "[you] believe in god because of the existence of science" is false, by your own admittance.
The only relevance to the value of faith, is what I deem it has to me. Its value to you is irrelivant.

I choose faith in a god because it feels right, no more no less. You seem to be trying to set me up to trip myself up, but it is not an agrument that can be run. It can't be rationally argued.
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