H1N1 Vaccine - Page 2
Old 09-01-2009, 06:39 PM   #21 (permalink)
enjoying the RealGM courtesy of RF

Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 837
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligeia View Post
Give me examples of the treatments you are claiming work.
OK. How about this. Get a naturopath and a normal physician together. Let's contrast. Both work for your health. One uses remedies past on through generations while the others use manufactured medicine. It's the same thing because most normal medicines come from herbs and plants like anturopathic medicine. Just search it up. There are tons of them. Around 65% of all naturopaths are real in my opinion.
rapsdabest is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 06:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
pensive

feat. Otto Neurath
 
Ligeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,093
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapsdabest View Post
OK. How about this. Get a naturopath and a normal physician together. Let's contrast. Both work for your health. One uses remedies past on through generations while the others use manufactured medicine. It's the same thing because most normal medicines come from herbs and plants like anturopathic medicine. Just search it up. There are tons of them. Around 65% of all naturopaths are real in my opinion.
Actually, what I am arguing is that most naturopathic treatments do not work, and if they do it can be credited to something other than the treatment itself. Your argument is that they do work. I'm asking you to present an example of a specific naturopathic treatment (like, say, homeopathy) that you think works.

Your claim that CAM is even remotely close to evidence-based medicine is simply false on its face.

May I ask further: what makes one naturopath real, and another one not? And how did you arrive at the 65% number?
Ligeia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 06:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
enjoying the RealGM courtesy of RF

Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 837
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligeia View Post
Actually, what I am arguing is that most naturopathic treatments do not work, and if they do it can be credited to something other than the treatment itself. Your argument is that they do work. I'm asking you to present an example of a specific naturopathic treatment (like, say, homeopathy) that you think works.

Your claim that CAM is even remotely close to evidence-based medicine is simply false on its face.

May I ask further: what makes one naturopath real, and another one not? And how did you arrive at the 65% number?
I know there are a few people that scam people by pretending to be naturopaths. This stuff works for reasons science has not yet figured out and one day will.
rapsdabest is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 07:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
pensive

feat. Otto Neurath
 
Ligeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,093
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapsdabest View Post
I know there are a few people that scam people by pretending to be naturopaths. This stuff works for reasons science has not yet figured out and one day will.
You're again avoiding what I'm asking for, which is demonstrating to me that perhaps this is not your strongest subject.

Here is my point: even if we do not know the precise mechanism through which something works, there should be a statistically significant positive increase in health outcomes when a treatment is run through a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. The fact is that almost every treatment or supplement a naturopath gives you will not pass these trials. If, however, you know of one that does, you should provide such information.

Further, you are arguing that "it works, we just don't know for sure how, why, or if it works." It is far more sensible to take a null hypothesis of non-efficacy until demonstrated otherwise. Until we know for sure that something works, we should not be claiming that it does and prescribing it as a valid treatment for people who have legitimate health problems.
Ligeia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 07:17 PM   #25 (permalink)
enjoying having the keys to destiny

perusing ancient database
 
ClingRap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The far side of the Universe.
Posts: 1,846
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligeia View Post
Naturopaths typically offer treatments that have no net positive effect, or are unable to beat the placebo effect. Complimentary and Alternative Medicine is almost exclusively nonsense, but I'd be interested to hear more about how you think that it is both a more "critical" and "co-creative" form of science, when naturopathy is based on completely unscientific premises.

Why would Autism diagnoses increase? Could it be because there was a significant change in understanding the diagnosis of autism, starting in 1991? Why is it that mercury based vaccines started in the 1930's, yet the autism "epidemic" didn't start until the 90's? Why is it that, since removing thimerosal from most vaccines in 1999, there has not been a statistically significant change in autism rates? Why is it that applying the more current criteria to past autism studies results in approximately the same rate?

This is not to say that it is impossible that there could be some environmental factor that causes an increase in autism rates, but there is certainly no causal link established or well understood; we're not even certain that there is actually a statistically significant increase in autism rates.
Having been through both systems and having someone close to me who practices what you would call nonsensical, most come from a "traditional scientific" background. they spend four-six years with their heads buried in biology textbooks. they're understanding of the human body as such, and as healers isn't very distant from what mainstream medicine understands. the critical approach stems from not merely viewing a particular problem as merely a symptom, which is what mainstream medicine is taught to do. they isolate and objectify. the patient in this system is inherently passive. naturopaths take a more holistic approach to their practice. they have some sort of responsibility for trying to change the patterns that lead to a lot of ailments. i know many naturopaths who know when to send someone to a "normal" doctor, and who know when tweeking a diet is all that's required. there's no need to be exclusive. it's about people getting better, not protecting some sort of sacred order or panoptic thinking.

let's not forget that mainstream science and their methods were considered nonsensical at a time. gentleman academics in the european aristocracy fought politically to get their science legitimated by having it practiced in the university. and much of their knowledge, especially modern medicinal knowledge is owed to the "traditional" knowledges of indigenous peoples the world over.
ClingRap is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 11:37 PM   #26 (permalink)
representing the Big Land

basketball is life
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 1,404
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by INSIDER View Post
i'm actually against flu shots.
i'm against these 'too good to be true' miracle shots that will keep you immune from getting sick.
what these do is end up making your imune system weaker, because your immune system wont have to do any work to fight off bacteria.

I actually have a theory that future children of today 1990's-2009+ babies will be sicker and more susceptible to catching sicknesses and diseases. their bodies arent strong enough, their immune systems are weaker.
is it a coincidence that over 25% of kids are allergic to something?
i remember drinking water out of my neighbors backyard water hose when i was a kid... now, these kids have their bottled and distilled water...
Hey I still drink water out of the hose, nothing wrong with it :P

I get flu shots, only because you have to at school. When I'm out of school I'm not bothering with them. Like you said, they actually weaken your immune system. The only shot I can see myself getting is if I go to like Cuba and new a Hep shot.
Chris is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 11:34 AM   #27 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Captain Ding Dong
 
Aar_Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St.Catharines
Posts: 4,554
Representing:
Default

Backgrounder: Vaccine Myths - Public Health Agency of Canada
Aar_Canada is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 11:41 AM   #28 (permalink)
BOOBS

never too old.
 
INSIDER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: richmond hill
Posts: 10,804
Representing:
Default

i just got a mass email here at work from one of my co-workers...
fact or fiction:

Quote:
Hello all,



I am sending you this email to inform you about startling information about the serious dangers of the Swine Flu (or H1N1) vaccine. This information I hope will provide some balance to the one-sided view being presented in the mainstream media.



I would encourage you in the strongest terms NOT to get this vaccine.



In my opinion, it is extremely dangerous and the risks far outweigh any benefits you may get from it.



I’ve included links to some articles at the end of this email. There are many more that you can find for yourself by googling phrases such as:



“H1N1 vaccine danger” or “swine flu vaccine danger” or “squalene danger”



I am attaching a quick reference sheet of safe and natural methods to prevent getting any type of flu.



Please inform yourself about the serious dangers of this vaccine before making any decisions for you and your family. This is critically important information people need to be aware of.



Squalene
The Swine Flu Vaccine, unlike other flu vaccines, contains squalene, an additive which when introduced into the bloodstream, causes crippling auto-immune diseases like Lou Gehrig's disease, Lupus, Multiple Sclerosis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, polyarteritis nodosa, and Guillain-Barre syndrome.



Squalene in vaccines has been strongly lined to the Gulf War Syndrome. The H1N1vaccine contains 1 million times more squalene than the vaccine given to Gulf War soldiers (which resulted in 140,000 veterans contracting the auto-immune disease Gulf War Syndrome).



“What is terrifying is that these pandemic vaccines contain ingredients, called immune adjuvants that a number of studies have shown cause devastating autoimmune disorders, including rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis and lupus. Animal studies using this adjuvant have found them to be deadly. A study using 14 guinea pigs found that when they were injected with the special adjuvant, only one animal survived. A repeat of the study found the same deadly outcome.

I reviewed a number of studies on this adjuvant and found something quite interesting. Several studies done on human test subjects found MF-59 (squalene) to be a very safe immune adjuvant. But when I checked to see who did these studies, I found-to no surprise-that they were done by the Novartis Pharmaceutical Company and Chiron Pharmaceutical Company, which have merged. They were all published in "prestigious" medical journals. Also, to no surprise, a great number of studies done by independent laboratories and research institutions all found a strong link between MF-59 and autoimmune diseases.

One must keep in mind that once the vaccine is injected, there is little you can do to protect yourself-at least by conventional medicine. It will mean a lifetime of crippling illness and early death.“

Dr Russell Blaylock



During the first Gulf War – Operation Desert Storm, an experimental anthrax vaccine was forcibly given to 140,000 rear-echelon support troops. This experimental vaccine included an oil-in-water adjuvant called squalene (aka MF-59 made by Novartis). Despite voluminous studies showing dangerous toxicity factors conducted on “oil-in-water” adjuvants at such prestigious research labs as UCLA – the U.S. Military brass consented to the experimental injections. As a result, ALL 140,000 troops developed a condition subsequently named “Gulf War Syndrome”.



'... this adjuvant [squalene] contributed to the cascade of reactions called "Gulf War syndrome," documented in the soldiers involved in the Gulf War. The symptoms they developed included arthritis, fibromyalgia, lymphadenopathy, rashes, photosensitive rashes, malar rashes, chronic fatigue, chronic headaches, abnormal body hair loss, non-healing skin lesions, aphthous ulcers, dizziness, weakness, memory loss, seizures, mood changes, neuropsychiatric problems, anti-thyroid effects, anaemia, elevated ESR (erythrocyte sedimentation rate), systemic lupus erythematosus, multiple sclerosis, ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis), Raynaud's phenomenon, Sjorgren's syndrome, chronic diarrhoea, night sweats and low-grade fevers.' Dr Viera Scheibner



“Rats injected with either squalene or squalane all developed experimental allergic encephalomyelitis…The injected animals were left hobbled, dragging their paralyzed hindquarters through the wood chips in their cages.”

Gary Matsumoto in his book, ‘Vaccine A’, re: 1970’s UCLA Medical Center research on squalene, an ingredient in Canada’s H1N1 vaccine.



The use of squalene is illegal in the USA and UK but is being allowed under the emergency pandemic decree.



The drug companies and the World Health Organization (WHO) are telling us that the 'swine flu' vaccine is safe when it has been revealed that 600 senior neurologists in the UK were sent a confidential letter by government health officials warning of a coming increase in Guillain-Barre syndrome as a result of the 'swine flu' vaccinations.

The letter came from the Health Protection Agency, the official body that oversees public health, and warned neurologists 'to be alert for an increase in a brain disorder called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), which could be triggered by the vaccine'. A senior neurologist quoted by the London Daily Mail said: 'I would not have the swine flu jab because of the GBS risk'.



The US government has given vaccine manufacturers (Novartis, Baxter, Glaxo-Smithkline, CSL) complete legal immunity from any deaths or injuries resulting from their vaccines. These companies stand to make billions of dollars on this vaccine.



http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...t-Exposed.aspx



What They Don?t Tell You About Vaccination Dangers Can Kill You or Ruin Your Life



http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...e-Disease.aspx



gp120 glyco-protein
gp120 is also included in the H1N1 vaccine. In combination with squalene, this glyco-protein causes permanent sterility in mammals. Dr. Richard A. Fayrer *Hosken at the University of Georgia patented an immunosterilization vaccine that causes permanent sterility.

“Fayrer-Hosken's invention has been successfully tested and found to be effective on all mammals, including the African elephant. What exactly is the active ingredients of this sterilization vaccine? Primarily the sterilization vaccine contains antigens from gp120 glyco-proteins bonded with a powerful oil-in-water "adjuvant" called squalene.”

Dr. True Ott

Flu vaccines don’t work
“among all vaccines, the flu vaccine is listed as the most useless vaccine of all time award” quote from Canada Vaccine Risk Awareness Network (comprised of physicians and scientists)



CDC officials were forced to confess on record “influenza vaccines are still amongst the least effective immunizing agents available, particularly for the elderly”



“The producers of these vaccines know they’re worthless but they go on selling them anyway”

Quote from former top vaccine expert, Anthony Morris, former chief vaccine officer at the FDA



60 Minutes aired a special on H1N1 on October 18, 2009

The 60 minutes segment acknowledges that many people born before 1950 have antibodies to the new H1N1 influenza and are naturally protected.



Criminal negligence of vaccine manufacturers
CDC states swine flu is a novel virus, appearing in April 2009.

Novartis patented swine flu vaccine in 2008. Baxter applied for patent in 2007



H1N1 vaccine manufacturer Baxter International is currently under criminal investigation for a possible deliberate contamination of the regular flu vaccine – with live Bird Flu virus (H5N1).

In February, 2009, Baxter International distributed to 18 countries 72 kg of a “Seasonal” influenza (H3N2) vaccine – which was contaminated with live Bird Flu (H5N1) virus.

(Autoimmune Technologies LLC, New Orleans)

If scientists in the Czech Republic had not discovered the problem before the contaminated vaccine was released to the public, the vaccine could have CAUSED the very “Bird Flu” pandemic that the world had been told was coming.

This “contamination” was about the most serious breach of safety you can possibly imagine.

So, why wasn’t this story on the front page of every newspaper in the world?

Baxter International is required BY LAW to adhere to Biosafety Level 3 protocols which are there specifically to prevent accidental contamination of this kind.

When Baxter ADMITTED to having contaminated the Seasonal Flu vaccine with the live Bird Flu virus, it claimed that the whole thing had been an “accident” – even though accidents like this one are virtually impossible in their Level 3 Biosafety containment.



Web links:



Pandemic H1N1 Swine Flu: What About You & Your Family?



http://swineflu.mercola.com/sites/ar...u-Vaccine.aspx



Swine Flu and the Swine Flu Vaccine



Flu Vaccine Exposed



WithoutConsent



Flu vaccines revealed as the greatest quackery ever pushed in the history of medicine | openUReyes



What's the Danger of Swine Flu Vaccinations?



http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...estimated.aspx



Natural Health Information Articles and Health Newsletter by Dr. Joseph Mercola



National Vaccine Information Center ? Vaccine Watch Dog



Vaccination Risk Awareness Network



Vaccination Debate



Pandemic Flu Online



Vaccination Liberation Home Page



Wayne Morris
INSIDER is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 11:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Captain Ding Dong
 
Aar_Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St.Catharines
Posts: 4,554
Representing:
Default

Fiction and distortion.

If the internet existed in the 50's we'd all be receiving the same types of emails about the poison that is the polio vaccine and how Jonas Salk works for the drug companies.

I go with whatever Health Canada and WHO has to say. I find it hard to believe that that thousands upon thousands of people would all be in cahoots with drug companies in some massive cover up. It's really ridiculous and happens everytime something like this comes around.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/1...nce_h1n1myths/

Here's the deal. The H1N1 flu vaccine is similar to the seasonal flu vaccine. There's a one in a million risk that you'll develop GBS (Guillain-Barré syndrome), other than that, you might get a headache or have a sore arm (like my girlfriend the other day). So, get it or don't get it. But don't not get it because you think there's some worldwide conspiracy happening where drug companies and health organizations are all collaborating to send out what amounts to poison in an attempt to make money. We're 8 BILLION times healthier than we were a century ago in part because of these very methods of controlling illnesses. You wouldn't think that if you listened to the fear mongers.

Last edited by Aar_Canada; 10-28-2009 at 11:55 AM.
Aar_Canada is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 11:45 AM   #30 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Banned
 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 19,089
Representing:
Default

Quote:
McGeer was responding to Health Canada's decision last week to approve the H1N1 vaccine without evaluating its safety and effectiveness in a single Canadian.


Instead, the federal drug regulator approved the pandemic flu shot based on the results of a small clinical trial conducted in Belgium.


The study involved 130 healthy adults, who were inoculated with the same version of Canada's vaccine, which is produced by GlaxoSmithKline under the trade name Arepanrix.


In the race to approve the vaccine, experts say Health Canada didn't have time to wait for Canadian scientists, who started testing the Glaxo vaccine two weeks ago and indicated that it could take up to seven weeks to collect the early results from Canadian tests.


The situation stands in marked contrast to the U.S., where federally funded scientists last month published early results of their safety and effectiveness tests, weeks ahead of the vaccine's approval by the Food and Drug Administration


While large clinical trials are always more reliable, the federal drug regulator chose to move as soon as some scientific evidence was available.
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 12:01 PM   #31 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Captain Ding Dong
 
Aar_Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St.Catharines
Posts: 4,554
Representing:
Default

Quote:
The third and most frequently cited concern regarding the modern H1N1 vaccine is that it hasn’t been adequately tested and therefore can’t be considered safe. First, it should be noted that drug companies have been developing and administering flu vaccines for decades with very few side effects other then the occasional stuffy nose or mild allergic reaction. The H1N1 vaccine is made by the same manufacturers, employing the same methods they use to make flu shots and nasal sprays every year.

Second, the National Institute of Health has been conducting clinical trials of the vaccine since July, and early data indicate that the vaccine is well tolerated. Additionally, at least 44,000 people have already been vaccinated in China with reports of only 14 adverse cases — and it’s not certain that those adverse outcomes are even linked to the vaccine.

What is certain is that deaths from H1N1 infection are on the rise. According to the CDC, almost all diagnosed influenza cases in the US so far this year are from H1N1. So far, more than 40,000 confirmed and probable cases have been identified, 5,011 people have been hospitalized, and 302 people have died. The flu has become so widespread that the CDC has stopped counting individual cases.
Aar_Canada is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 12:04 PM   #32 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Banned
 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 19,089
Representing:
Default

Fiction and distortion.
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 12:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

i'm completely with bubble boy on this one. the vaccine is tested, it is in use, and it will serve a significant purpose in preventing a breakout in canada if people get it. the rest of this nonsense about it causing other health problems is just simply scare mongering.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 12:08 PM   #34 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Captain Ding Dong
 
Aar_Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St.Catharines
Posts: 4,554
Representing:
Default

That's right, hot mom from Wonder Years.
Aar_Canada is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 12:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum
 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 13,266
Representing:
Default

i'm debating getting this in the next day or so. I work in a hospital and have a new baby at home, so i'm thinking this may be a good idea.

Who else is getting the vaccine?
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 12:46 PM   #36 (permalink)
DVS
in la la land

I'm stuck being a Rap Fan
 
DVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Its jeffb's world we just post in it
Posts: 6,001
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fancylad View Post
i'm debating getting this in the next day or so. I work in a hospital and have a new baby at home, so i'm thinking this may be a good idea.

Who else is getting the vaccine?
I've never gotten any flu shots and only vaccine I have recieved was when I was an infant.

I really don't know what to say as they say all under about the age of 55 are vulnerable. Right now I'm going with a no for the vaccine.
DVS is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 01:54 PM   #37 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,415
Representing:
Default

I'm having a hard time with the idea of not getting my kids vaccinated after reading this....

13-year-old hockey player dies of swine flu
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 02:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Captain Ding Dong
 
Aar_Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St.Catharines
Posts: 4,554
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by XiaominWu View Post
I'm having a hard time with the idea of not getting my kids vaccinated after reading this....

13-year-old hockey player dies of swine flu
That's why it's different than the season, run-of-the-mill flu and yeah, me too.
Aar_Canada is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 04:44 PM   #39 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,071
Representing:
Default

I get the flu shot quite regularly, ever since getting the flu real bad for a couple straight years. It's definitely something worth avoiding, and this one especially so.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2009, 05:57 PM   #40 (permalink)
pensive

feat. Otto Neurath
 
Ligeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,093
Representing:
Default

I'll be getting the flu shot. Read sciencebasedmedicine.org if you want to see the scientific evidence in support of the vaccine, and also the evidence that demonstrates arguments like "Squalene causes Gulf War Syndrome" are faulty.
Ligeia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
H1N1 100% made in USA and Canada??? Apollo The Podium 19 10-31-2009 01:40 PM
H1N1 spreading on Toronto Raptors? Thug Toronto Raptors 10 10-26-2009 08:41 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24