G20 Summit - Page 8
Old 06-27-2010, 09:37 PM   #141 (permalink)
contemplating

The Killing Joke
 
Claudius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burkina Faso, Disputed Zone
Posts: 9,075
Representing:
Send a message via MSN to Claudius
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
all i can say is that they better have committed a crime for which there is evidence. if we hear that people were arrested for crimes they might commit i'm going to be very disappointed in our police force and our government.
See, but we will hear that, likely from a lawyer or from a special interest group. Then it'll be up to the public to go to each individual hearing and determine for themselves if there is evidence or no evidence.

Of course those arrested will claim they did nothing wrong etc.

As for not engaging, why would the police engage a mob that was on the cusp of breaking out? Strategically speaking, the police were outnumbered and were continuously shuttling officers in for reinforcements or were retreating.

While I don't agree with the lack of habeas corpus in the ridiculous laws that were passed by McGuinty in the past week, I will say, based on what I've read is that alot of the arrests seemed to be based on evidence.
Claudius is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:03 AM   #142 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum
 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 13,266
Representing:
Default

so now that it's over, i would call this past weekend a failure - not talking about the actual summit... just the effect it has had on the city and the public.

When it comes to all the protests and chaos i am on the fence as to who i side with. In one regard i think that police and law inforcement have damaged their reputation in the city after yesterday's actions. Police are always going to have that 'pig' stigma about them and this weekend made it worse.

Then at the same time you have these 'protests' that didn't amount to much consisting of a large part of curious onlookers who got caught up in this group 'down with law' mentality. It was stupid. People knew it was a bad idea to hang around certain areas, yet they still did it. A part of me says they had it coming.

One thing i would say was that the police seemed to do a good job on saturday. and then (possibly expecting the same) they over did it on sunday.

HOpefully that was the last time an event like this is held in Toronto.

Last edited by fancylad; 06-28-2010 at 09:12 AM.
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:09 AM   #143 (permalink)
jonas smellandchewthis

Senior Member
 
thought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,731
Representing:
Default

The problem for me is you have this radical group of protestors representing the minority of all protestors yet you have the majority of this weekend's protestors, who carried out their protests peacefully and rationally, being painted with the same brush as the radical minority. It's expected, and it's what the radicals want but in chastising the majority you've essentially made the radicals winners.
thought is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:10 AM   #144 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,415
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fancylad View Post
so now that it's over, i would call this past weekend a failure - not talking about the actual summit... just the effect it has had on the city and the public.

When it comes to all the protests and chaos i am on the fence as to who i side with. In one regard i think that police and law inforcement have damaged their reputation in the city after yesterday's actions. Police are always going to have that 'pig' stigma about them and this weekend made it worse.

Then at the same time you have these 'protests' that didn't amount to much consisting of a large part of curious onlookers who got caught up in this group 'down with law' mentality. It was stupid. People knew it was a bad idea to hang around certain areas, yet they still did it.
I think the police did a fine job.

I agree that the stupidest part was the hordes of people who just seemed to be looking for a "Youtube Moment".
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:16 AM   #145 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum
 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 13,266
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by XiaominWu View Post
I think the police did a fine job.

I agree that the stupidest part was the hordes of people who just seemed to be looking for a "Youtube Moment".
you know what really pissed me off? on satruday when they were showing the protests, something like 50% of the people were holding up their cameras, cell phones, etc making movies and taking pictures. how fun!
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:21 AM   #146 (permalink)
the next dictator of MLSE

fresh and clean
 
Windex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: uʍop ɹǝpun
Posts: 22,591
Representing:
Default

Police did a stand up job, its hard keeping those guys in line without completely losing your cool
Windex is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:37 AM   #147 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

the police did not do a good job, although it was likely not at all the fault of the cops on the ground.

2 issues for me:

1. the police set a trap by allowing violence on one day and then using it as an excuse the next day to clamp down on civil liberties and break into people's homes and arrest them for things they hadn't even done yet. in this i would include 'conspiring to commit mischief' charges and instances like the vet (named booth) who woke up at 4:00 am with a gun in his face and was hauled out on to his lawn in handcuffs in front of the neighbours until the police eventually realized they were in the wrong house. these are serious problems that happen when a police force is allowed to step beyond the acceptable limits of privacy and liberty and arrest people who have not been caught committing a crime.

2. people are confusing two significantly different elemnts of this weekend. the first issue is protecting the safety of world leaders, and the second is dealing with civil unrest and property damage. the reality is that neiher of these things were related in any real way once the fences and barricades were up. world leaders were protected securely, and this was never even close to being compromised. remember that 10 or so years ago (maybe it was 15?) when world leaders gathered in toronto they walked down the streets with a small bodyguard and dined in restaurants that wre also occupied by regular citizens. yes, the world is a different place now and i am certainly not suggesting we go back to that. and we didn't. the barricades were up and no one saw hide nor hair of a delegate during this summit. but that wasn't the only role of police. some might say that the job was well done because summit leaders were not in danger, but that was only half the job, and we seem to not be bothered that police were allowed, by special undebated decree, to strip people of civil liberties and take a wildly inconsistent approach to keeping our streets safe. the trap i mentioned in my first point and the subsequent rounding up of people in order to clear the streets should horrify all of us. the people of toronto were hoodwinked by the ontario government and our police forces, and we're being encouraged to be ok with this because no leaders got hurt. but these two issues are mostly unrelated except for time and space. the police crackdown was about destruction of property, and that could have been prevented from the outset by cracking down on violent protesters and not allowing them to build up the momentum that we saw on saturday. clearly, since they cracked down the next day, this was not an impossibility. but it did provide a great excuse for $1.1 billion of security spending and an unconstitutional round-up of civilians.

questions need to be asked about this.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:08 AM   #148 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,071
Representing:
Default

it was just plain ugly all the way around. the decision to hold it here - ugly. the tactics of the black bloc, and the cops allowing them to carry out their burning man antics - ugly. the way ordinary citizens got rounded up and held for hours in the rain along with peaceful protesters, and whatever troublemakers were left - terribly ugly.

Even the fence alone sucked. if they want to put a fence around the convention center that's one thing. But the whole overblown use of force and turning the entire downtown core of a major city into a militarized zone for a full week has to make us all ask what kind of society we live in. Are we going to say it's all necessary because of a few organized freaks that need their burning man fix more than once a year? How sad is that?

And yet we are going to wonder about the over-riding meaning less and less I suspect. When I saw this sort of shit in Quebec City, I started to tremble over the ugliness. Many years later I have to say I'm becoming desensitized to it. It's a shame. The future looks to be all about a few being on one side of a big fence, and most of us making do, or acting out, on the other side.

LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:13 AM   #149 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum
 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 13,266
Representing:
Default

ya trane. i agree with a lot of your second point. It's definitely one aspect that made this weekend a big failure for me. Still at the same time, i question the motives of the people who went down to Queen street yesterday. Like why the hell would you ask for that sort of trouble? It's the last place i would want to find myself.

I honestly think a lot of the people 'protesting' were doing it because it was 'something to do.'
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:14 AM   #150 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum
 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 13,266
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
And yet we are going to wonder about the over-riding meaning less and less I suspect. When I saw this sort of shit in Quebec City, I started to tremble over the ugliness. Many years later I have to say I'm becoming desensitized to it. It's a shame. The future looks to be all about a few being on one side of a big fence, and most of us making do, or acting out, on the other side.
true. fitting way of putting it.
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:18 AM   #151 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fancylad View Post

I honestly think a lot of the people 'protesting' were doing it because it was 'something to do.'
The higher that the monkey can climb
The more he shows his tail
Call no man happy 'til he dies
There's no milk at the bottom of the pail

God builds a church
The devil builds a chapel
Like the thistles that are growing
'Round the trunk of a tree
All the good in the world
You can put inside a thimble
And still have room for you and me

If there's one thing you can say about Mankind
There's nothing kind about man
You can drive out nature with a pitch fork
But it always comes roaring back again

Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world

The higher that the monkey can climb
The more he shows his tail
Call no man happy till he dies
There's no milk at the bottom of the pail

God tempers all the winds for the new shorn lambs
The devil knows the bible like the back of his hand
All the good in the world
You can put inside a thimble
And still have room for you and me

If there's one thing you can say about Mankind
There's nothing kind about man
You can drive out nature with a pitch fork
But it always comes roaring back again

For want of a bird
The sky was lost
For want of a nail
A shoe was lost
For want of a life
A knife was lost
For want of a toy
A child was lost

And misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Everybody row, everybody row
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Everybody row, everybody row
Everybody row, everybody row
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Everybody row, everybody row
Everybody row, everybody row
Everybody row
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Misery's the river of the world
Everybody row, everybody row
Everybody row
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 11:42 AM   #152 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,374
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post

1. the police set a trap by allowing violence on one day and then using it as an excuse the next day to clamp down on civil liberties and break into people's homes and arrest them for things they hadn't even done yet.


Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 06-28-2010 at 11:45 AM.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 11:53 AM   #153 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

david mcnally was my thesis supervisor
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:05 PM   #154 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Police G20 tactics give Toronto a black eye - The Globe and Mail

Quote:
The image of Toronto, post-summit, is that this is a place where the rule of law isn’t what it used to be, where the democratic right to protest can be suspended if it’s inconvenient. That is the message the world is seeing, thanks to social media like Twitter and YouTube, which enabled citizens to post real time accounts and videos of apparent police overreaction, and mainstream media like the New York Times, which published a story on the police actions that cast the city in an unfavourable light.

That is not merely a problem for those who believe in civil liberties – it’s also a blow for the business aspirations of Canada’s largest city.

Rule of law is one of the big – and often unspoken – competitive advantages of places like Canada, along with being a nice tolerant place to live. Businesses seek out places where the rule of law is strongest, and shun places where it is weak. In fact, one of the standard pitches that investment bankers and lawyers use to convince mining companies to locate here is that even though they may have to do business with dodgy regimes like the Democratic Republic of Congo, a headquarters in Toronto at least affords them the protection of Canada’s strong legal regime.
Quote:
But the events of this past weekend have shaken that faith for many. Some of the scenes on Toronto’s streets during the G20 recalled for witnesses those more often associated with dictatorships. There were plainclothes officers snatching people from the midst of seemingly peaceful demonstrations and stuffing them in the back of minivans, before speeding away. Passersby arrested just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There were cops busting into homes and pointing guns at innocent people in their own beds. (That’s what one Toronto couple, veterinarians both, claim happened to them when police snuck into the family apartment at 4 a.m. by mistake, then hemmed and hawed when asked to produce a warrant.)

There were police charges at crowds with no warning. (This is a point the Toronto police dispute, but most eyewitness accounts, including those of journalists, are in agreement that warnings were inadequate, inaudible or even non-existent.)

Some showcase. A few broken windows by lawbreaking protesters have, sadly, become expected at these events. But police behaviour like this and the criminalization of civilian dissent is not expected, certainly not in Canada.

None of the criticism of the police absolves all protesters of blame. Both the criminal element who damaged property and taunted police, as well as the many peaceful protesters who nonetheless refused to disavow violence as a tactic, are at the root of the problem.

However, the police must be held to a higher standard. These were the biggest mass arrests in Canadian history, numbering more than 900. There were surely legitimate reasons for some, but the vast numbers of people simply held then released suggests that police simply picked up everyone in sight, a civil libertarian’s nightmare.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 09:58 PM   #155 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,371
Representing:
Default

haha

the black bloc went home silly willy.

Who else they gonna bitch at now to keep the g20 wave rolling.

Im off it now.

Its silly.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:05 PM   #156 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
haha

the black bloc went home silly willy.

Who else they gonna bitch at now to keep the g20 wave rolling.

Im off it now.

Its silly.
that's exactly how the government and the police get away with this kind of criminalization of dissent. meh, it's over, who cares?

i care. it was wrong, and they should be held to account.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:11 PM   #157 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
the police did not do a good job, although it was likely not at all the fault of the cops on the ground.

2 issues for me:

1. the police set a trap by allowing violence on one day and then using it as an excuse the next day to clamp down on civil liberties and break into people's homes and arrest them for things they hadn't even done yet. in this i would include 'conspiring to commit mischief' charges and instances like the vet (named booth) who woke up at 4:00 am with a gun in his face and was hauled out on to his lawn in handcuffs in front of the neighbours until the police eventually realized they were in the wrong house. these are serious problems that happen when a police force is allowed to step beyond the acceptable limits of privacy and liberty and arrest people who have not been caught committing a crime.

2. people are confusing two significantly different elemnts of this weekend. the first issue is protecting the safety of world leaders, and the second is dealing with civil unrest and property damage. the reality is that neiher of these things were related in any real way once the fences and barricades were up. world leaders were protected securely, and this was never even close to being compromised. remember that 10 or so years ago (maybe it was 15?) when world leaders gathered in toronto they walked down the streets with a small bodyguard and dined in restaurants that wre also occupied by regular citizens. yes, the world is a different place now and i am certainly not suggesting we go back to that. and we didn't. the barricades were up and no one saw hide nor hair of a delegate during this summit. but that wasn't the only role of police. some might say that the job was well done because summit leaders were not in danger, but that was only half the job, and we seem to not be bothered that police were allowed, by special undebated decree, to strip people of civil liberties and take a wildly inconsistent approach to keeping our streets safe. the trap i mentioned in my first point and the subsequent rounding up of people in order to clear the streets should horrify all of us. the people of toronto were hoodwinked by the ontario government and our police forces, and we're being encouraged to be ok with this because no leaders got hurt. but these two issues are mostly unrelated except for time and space. the police crackdown was about destruction of property, and that could have been prevented from the outset by cracking down on violent protesters and not allowing them to build up the momentum that we saw on saturday. clearly, since they cracked down the next day, this was not an impossibility. but it did provide a great excuse for $1.1 billion of security spending and an unconstitutional round-up of civilians.

questions need to be asked about this.
'trane... I'm curious.... what approach would YOU have taken to dealing with the violent/mischievous protesters who saw fit to smash windows, paint grafitti and burn cop cars?

Did you expect the police to break ranks and chase these people down? I have a few good friends who are cops and the LAST thing that they wanted to do was get caught out alone in a group of unpredictable people when they didn't know who the real enemy was.

From what I understand police forces around the world share intelligence about the identities of these "anarchists" who actually FLY IN to wherever summits are being held just so they can disrupt them. If they had solid leads on who these people were and were privy to information detaling their actions at previous demonstrations is it really a gross injustice to take them off the street before they can get into any trouble THIS time?

I agree with fancy's comment (and SJ's) about the general public too.... why the hell would you have WANTED to be down there when all this was going on? Just so you could have something to put on Youtube? I'm sorry but if you did that you were a dumbass. If you're a hiker and you defy the explicit warnings of the park staff, go off the beaten path and then get attacked by a bear, do you have the right to bitch & complain and sue the park for not protecting you? That's ridiculous.

I'm not saying that the police made no mistakes at all.... they definitely owe that veterinarian couple a HUGE apology.... but in the grand scheme of things I thought that they did a decent job.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:24 PM   #158 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,371
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
that's exactly how the government and the police get away with this kind of criminalization of dissent. meh, it's over, who cares?

i care. it was wrong, and they should be held to account.
why's that, were the living conditions at casa protester detention center not up to their 5 star billing?

Did they hold a bunch of idiots for 5 hours when they were told to get the f^$# outta dodge and decided it was more fun to stay?

people in canada are ridiculous. live in an effin dream world.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:33 PM   #159 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
why's that, were the living conditions at casa protester detention center not up to their 5 star billing?

Did they hold a bunch of idiots for 5 hours when they were told to get the f^$# outta dodge and decided it was more fun to stay?

people in canada are ridiculous. live in an effin dream world.
holding a 15 year old kid for 33 hours because he was near to a protest is unconstitutional. so is detaining people who have not committed a crime. dreaming of civil liberties in canada shouldn't be necessary since they are already constitutionally protected.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2010, 10:37 PM   #160 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
'trane... I'm curious.... what approach would YOU have taken to dealing with the violent/mischievous protesters who saw fit to smash windows, paint grafitti and burn cop cars?

Did you expect the police to break ranks and chase these people down? I have a few good friends who are cops and the LAST thing that they wanted to do was get caught out alone in a group of unpredictable people when they didn't know who the real enemy was.

From what I understand police forces around the world share intelligence about the identities of these "anarchists" who actually FLY IN to wherever summits are being held just so they can disrupt them. If they had solid leads on who these people were and were privy to information detaling their actions at previous demonstrations is it really a gross injustice to take them off the street before they can get into any trouble THIS time?

I agree with fancy's comment (and SJ's) about the general public too.... why the hell would you have WANTED to be down there when all this was going on? Just so you could have something to put on Youtube? I'm sorry but if you did that you were a dumbass. If you're a hiker and you defy the explicit warnings of the park staff, go off the beaten path and then get attacked by a bear, do you have the right to bitch & complain and sue the park for not protecting you? That's ridiculous.

I'm not saying that the police made no mistakes at all.... they definitely owe that veterinarian couple a HUGE apology.... but in the grand scheme of things I thought that they did a decent job.
i would have had a police line on either side of the protest to prevent them from getting at the storefronts. i wouldn't have penned them into areas and abandoned cars. i would have been prepared for this kind of thing. see torap, the fact that they did it on sunday is proof to me that it is possible. ow was one day different from the next in this regard? this is not the fault of the cops on the ground, it is the fault of the chief and the strategists who let it happen. and if, indeed, there were undercover officers amongst the ranks of the black clad violent groups, then we really have an affront to democracy going on.

the hiker analogy is ludicrous. this is downtown toronto and a public space.

and youtube interest, protest interest or human curiosity, it doesn't matter why people came. they had every right to be there.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24