G20 Summit - Page 17
Old 08-23-2010, 09:03 PM   #321 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

i don't care about all over the world, and i think it is appropriate when mistakes are made by front line police officers and law enforcement. the problem is when it is used to silence dissent. i'm not going make that case again, because my opinion on it is well documented here. i'm surprised you would even need to ask since i have essentially been saying the exact same thing all the way through this thread.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 12:39 PM   #322 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

oh, you don't say...

G20 report blasts police for excessive force, civil rights violations - The Globe and Mail


Quote:
Police violated civil rights, detained people illegally, and used excessive force during the G20 summit two years ago, a new report concludes.

The report by Ontario’s independent police watchdog also blasts the temporary detention centre that Toronto police set up for its poor planning, design and operation that saw people detained illegally.

The Office of the Independent Police Review Director found police breached several constitutional rights during the tumultuous event, in which more than 1,100 people were arrested, most to be released without charge.

“Some police officers ignored basic rights citizens have under the Charter and overstepped their authority when they stopped and searched people arbitrarily and without legal justification,” the report states.
Quote:
“It is fair to say the level of force used in controlling the crowds and making arrests at Queen’s Park was higher than anything the general public had witnessed before in Toronto.”

It also concludes mass arrests outside a downtown hotel were “unlawful,” and a dawn raid and arrest of people at a university residence was done without the required warrants.
Quote:
Even officers in place thought the situation untenable, with one describing the incident commander as “maniacal,” the report says.

“Where are they going to give them a chance to disperse?” one officer asked.

“They aren’t, that’s the problem,” another replied.

“Well, that’s stupid.”
Quote:
It also faults the incident commander for referring to the crowds at one point as “marauding terrorists,” creating the impression that criminals were on the loose.

xw, torap, sj, benzo, anyone else that thought this was no big deal - you still think they did a good job?
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 12:59 PM   #323 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

Ummm.... yes. Why would this article change my mind? People were making the same claims at the time. I happen to disagree with them.

Oh, and there were most certainly "criminals on the loose".
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:02 PM   #324 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

so 2 independent police watchdogs (not a bunch of journalists and angry internet denizens) decry it as full of civil rights violations, and that's ok by you? really?
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:26 PM   #325 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

Yes.

I could have told you a long time ago exactly what that report would contain. I get the impression that it was written by smiling faces.

They throw around a word like "civil rights violations" and it sounds terribly severe.... but I think you can only really make judgements about individual actions.... and from what I saw and read, the police acted in a way that was consistent with what I would have wanted them to do in the given situation.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:49 PM   #326 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

if you don't think civil rights violations by the police are severe i don't even know what to say. that is simply astonishing.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:53 PM   #327 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

and now you are doing it. there are shades of grey, 'trane.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #328 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

what am i doing? and how are there shades of grey on violations of our basic democratic rights?

and speaking about "individual actions":

Quote:
“Some police officers ignored basic rights citizens have under the Charter and overstepped their authority when they stopped and searched people arbitrarily and without legal justification,” the report states.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 02:10 PM   #329 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

so funny... if it was at a ball-game, everyone gets searched and doesn't say boo.... but because it is "public space", it is a massive violation of basic freedoms.... never mind that they are trying to prevent dozens (hundreds?) of criminals from committing very violent crimes... and virtually anyone present is a potential suspect.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 02:22 PM   #330 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by XiaominWu View Post
so funny... if it was at a ball-game, everyone gets searched and doesn't say boo.... but because it is "public space", it is a massive violation of basic freedoms.... never mind that they are trying to prevent dozens (hundreds?) of criminals from committing very violent crimes... and virtually anyone present is a potential suspect.
they don't randomly detain people at ball games who have not broken any laws. they don't kettle them, and they don't use excessive force to take people down. if they do, they can expect to face stiff discipline because it is an abuse of power. what they do is to act consistently and fairly, and declare ahead of time as a matter of policy regarding the venue that they will be doing this. they are looking for specific items that are banned from the venue when they search people's bags, but they don't detain them, they don't pat them down as a matter of normal routine, and they don't make mass arrests for simply gathering in a public place.

that is nowhere close to what happened here, and this is not at all funny. i still can't believe you are putting forward the idea that it is ok to detain and search innocent civilians because there might be a criminal among them. that is no shade of grey xw, that's a violation of basic civil rights.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 02:44 PM   #331 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

wait... so all we have to do is announce ahead of time that all participants in the next planned mass riot will be searched for weapons and explosives.... then it's OK with you?

i am fairly certain that if the police stood back and watched this riot unfold, they would have been slammed by these same watchdogs for not doing enough to prevent it from getting out of hand. a complete "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

oh, and nobody was "simply gathering in a public place".... that's being disingenuous to the matter at hand.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 05:17 PM   #332 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

your first paragraph in that post is totally misleading. ballgames happen in venues with stated policies regarding that private enterprise. we have a public space policy called the charter that details our rights outside of these types of events (and in many cases within them). paying a ticket to go to an event and being subjected to the policies of that event is quite different than going to queen's park to attend a political demonstration. so declaring ahead of time that charter rights will be violated in a public space is not ok with me. nice try, but that is a complete failure of an argument.

as to your second paragraph, i never suggested the police should stand by and do nothing, so i have no idea what you are trying to argue against. they have an obligation to protect charter rights, and they failed to do so, with significant consequences. it is not damned if you do, damned if you don't. it's a tough job, but it is their job. they needed to do it without trampling over civil liberties. that is not a preference, it is a legal requirement. they don't get to pick and choose when the charter applies.

everybody was precisely 'gathering in a public place'. those that broke the law should be prosecuted. those that did not had every right to gather there, to demonstrate, to shout until they were blue in the face. a protest of this kind, by definition, is gathering in a public place. with tens of thousands of people present, and only a few hundred that caused problems, mass arrests are an overstepping of authority that resulted in breeches of constitutional rights. that's not a grey area, and that's simply not acceptable. what is disengenuous about that? i ask you to be specific so i can understand what you are trying to argue here.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 05:28 PM   #333 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,227
Representing:
Default

There are bad police out there, and sometimes even good police have bad days.

You have to wonder how much the anticipation, and expectation of what was going to happen played into what actually happened.

I agree it's a tough job when you have peaceful and non-peaceful protestors all intermingled - where was the unity?
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 06:43 PM   #334 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
your first paragraph in that post is totally misleading. ballgames happen in venues with stated policies regarding that private enterprise. we have a public space policy called the charter that details our rights outside of these types of events (and in many cases within them). paying a ticket to go to an event and being subjected to the policies of that event is quite different than going to queen's park to attend a political demonstration. so declaring ahead of time that charter rights will be violated in a public space is not ok with me. nice try, but that is a complete failure of an argument.

as to your second paragraph, i never suggested the police should stand by and do nothing, so i have no idea what you are trying to argue against. they have an obligation to protect charter rights, and they failed to do so, with significant consequences. it is not damned if you do, damned if you don't. it's a tough job, but it is their job. they needed to do it without trampling over civil liberties. that is not a preference, it is a legal requirement. they don't get to pick and choose when the charter applies.

everybody was precisely 'gathering in a public place'. those that broke the law should be prosecuted. those that did not had every right to gather there, to demonstrate, to shout until they were blue in the face. a protest of this kind, by definition, is gathering in a public place. with tens of thousands of people present, and only a few hundred that caused problems, mass arrests are an overstepping of authority that resulted in breeches of constitutional rights. that's not a grey area, and that's simply not acceptable. what is disengenuous about that? i ask you to be specific so i can understand what you are trying to argue here.
These paragraphs are getting longer and longer..... bottom line is that my opinion of both what was transpiring that day and whether or not the officers acted with the best interests of our city in mind is obviously very different from yours. And the long paragraphs aren't doing anything to change my mind.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 08:14 PM   #335 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,935
Representing:
Default

I don't think it's about good police or bad police, it's about what expectations are placed on police, and how they are asked to carry out their jobs. This is about terrible shit happening at the top. I had a lot of respect for Blair, and I think he got fucked over, but he also allowed himself to get fucked over and my respect for him is gone.

Thousands of innocent people don't get detained and treated worse than smelly stray dogs as a result of some bad cops, or good cops having bad days. Dozens of people on their way home or wherever, don't get stuck in the rain while being kettled due to random cop behavior. This was a systematic undermining of what a civil society means. From beginning to end. And it proved incredibly ineffective in terms of handling the real problem at hand, but I might guess that the whole ordeal was more about how much of an over-exertion of power can be deemed acceptable for future practices, while allowing some violence to get out of hand in the present so that the "crisis" could conveniently be pointed to as a means of excusing all the shit at the time as well as all the shit yet to go down. The privileged and powerful are going to turn our cities into zoos with people exhibits before they are going to be held accountable for fucking over the greater majority of us ordinary citizens, if we let them. This report represents a means of us not letting them, not smiley faces hoping to shit on cops.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 09:00 PM   #336 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by XiaominWu View Post
These paragraphs are getting longer and longer..... bottom line is that my opinion of both what was transpiring that day and whether or not the officers acted with the best interests of our city in mind is obviously very different from yours. And the long paragraphs aren't doing anything to change my mind.
here's a short paragraph then, if you don't like to read:

civil liberties and political speech are more important to a properly functioning democracy than silencing dissent in the name of false security.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 09:15 PM   #337 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
here's a short paragraph then, if you don't like to read:

civil liberties and political speech are more important to a properly functioning democracy than silencing dissent in the name of false security.
agree with all of that sentiment.... don't agree with your application of it to the behaviour of the police and terrorists at the G20.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 09:18 PM   #338 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,594
Representing:
Default

don't understand how that can possibly follow.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 09:33 PM   #339 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,935
Representing:
Default

Terrorists? Excellent. Put me in that zoo then. Concerned citizens no longer exist apparently. There are just the privileged and the terrorists. Pick your flavor of crimes - those committed by the police in support of power, or those committed by vandals in useless attempts to question power. Yay.

It is the narrowing down of civil discourse to supporting one of those extremely unsatisfactory options, openly or by remaining silent, which enrages most people. That is the terrible failure these events represent. And what I fear is that it does not represent a failure on behalf of those with deires to excert more power. The war on terror starts at home - that's a wet dream of a concept for the worst among us.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 10:12 PM   #340 (permalink)
------------------------

Senior Member
 
XiaominWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,409
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
don't understand how that can possibly follow.
i'm ok with that. it isn't that important to me that you agree with my opinion.

peace.
XiaominWu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24