G20 Summit - Page 14
Old 06-30-2010, 06:03 PM   #261 (permalink)
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I had no interest in protesting the actual G20 summit itself and would not have bothered to go to Toronto if I was still in Ontario. However, in a way, I'm glad that journalists and protestors did show up on Sunday to exercise their rights. To be clear, and so nobody strawman's me, I'm not endorsing disruptive activities. I'm talking about people who just walked around and sang "oh canada" or whatever.

Some of the posters on this forum have made me VERY GLAD those peaceful people showed up. I didn't really realize how important it might be until you all started yapping. At first, I thought it might be inconsequential, but now I see just how many of you will fucking cave under minimal pressure.

How the fuck will you react under a really tough threat? What will you guys tolerate when the state has even better excuses to use?

There are so many people that are willing to just cave and let the state do whatever it wants in the name of security. You have to draw the line somewhere or else they think they can just keep pushing the line. At what point do you say "you know, I'm uncomfortable with where the line is being drawn."

At what point do you get uncomfortable?
Are you serious? That's quite the elitist attitude you're sporting there.

I trust we'll see you at Queens Park in the future fighting for your rights & freedoms then?
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:03 PM   #262 (permalink)
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Agreed. Am I supposed to believe that this was made by a non-partisan person with no agenda?

Please.
every piece of media is made by a person or group with an agenda. there is no such thing as objective media, especially in political situations.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:04 PM   #263 (permalink)
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Are you serious? That's quite the elitist attitude you're sporting there.

I trust we'll see you at Queens Park in the future fighting for your rights & freedoms then?
i'm definitely more likely to be there. i've done it in the past and i will do it again.

+1 acgm.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:06 PM   #264 (permalink)
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Are you serious? That's quite the elitist attitude you're sporting there.

I trust we'll see you at Queens Park in the future fighting for your rights & freedoms then?
Which part was elitist? I'm genuinely asking that question. I'd like to know so that I can clarify that.

See, I draw a distinction between protesting the summit and protesting the other stuff going on.

So, let me know which part is elitist.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:10 PM   #265 (permalink)
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ArmChair - i'm not a political guy. i'm just opinionated. i follow enough politics to stay current, not enough to keep in tune with bloggers on youtube and members of news papers that don't reach Ottawa. Characterizing Straightdope would be the same as any other persons video I watched on their beliefs. It's bias and opinionated. And, since he witnessed these events, I find it hard to believe that he was at all these places when all these different events took place.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:10 PM   #266 (permalink)
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Just curious what aspects you find problematic?

Also, given that I've spoken with Straightdope's girlfriend before, I'm curious as to how you (or others for that matter) would characterize him.

I think you might be surprised by his background.
The video STARTS with police REACTING to a situation.... I would have much rather seen it play out from the beginning in an attempt to understand what led the police to take those actions.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:18 PM   #267 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ArmChairGM View Post
I had no interest in protesting the actual G20 summit itself and would not have bothered to go to Toronto if I was still in Ontario. However, in a way, I'm glad that journalists and protestors did show up on Sunday to exercise their rights. To be clear, and so nobody strawman's me, I'm not endorsing disruptive activities. I'm talking about people who just walked around and sang "oh canada" or whatever.

Some of the posters on this forum have made me VERY GLAD those peaceful people showed up. I didn't really realize how important it might be until you all started yapping. At first, I thought it might be inconsequential, but now I see just how many of you will fucking cave under minimal pressure.

How the fuck will you react under a really tough threat? What will you guys tolerate when the state has even better excuses to use?

There are so many people that are willing to just cave and let the state do whatever it wants in the name of security. You have to draw the line somewhere or else they think they can just keep pushing the line. At what point do you say "you know, I'm uncomfortable with where the line is being drawn."

At what point do you get uncomfortable?
I'd say that these were pretty elitist.

People draw their lines at different times and for different reasons.

That very idea that you think everyone should slant their views towards your own (because yours is "right") is.... elitist.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:18 PM   #268 (permalink)
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The video STARTS with police REACTING to a situation.... I would have much rather seen it play out from the beginning in an attempt to understand what led the police to take those actions.
Oh, brother.

You know what? I posted a longer clip of that in the exact same incident in this thread. It's here for you to see if you bothered to seek out the information and read people's posts. Those people decided they had a right to be there, so they organized a sit down on the grass.

I'll go back in the thread and find the longer video and paste it in this post soon.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:23 PM   #269 (permalink)
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I'd say that these were pretty elitist.

People draw their lines at different times and for different reasons.

That very idea that you think everyone should slant their views towards your own (because yours is "right") is.... elitist.
Wow. Interesting interpretation. Not too surprised.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:23 PM   #270 (permalink)
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I actually found that the overall reaction could have likely been much worse. My biggest problem is with what amounted to an over-reaction and a lazy assertion of force before the whole thing even began. I ate breakfast quite a distance from the Convention Centre on the Monday before the whole thing. There were almost as many police officers as people at that point already.

And of course some shmuck gets stopped with a crossbow and a chainsaw, which wasn't found to have anything to do with the summit or any related activities. But there was this guy's stuff shown off afterwards. Exactly why did he get his property confiscated? And why did the jackasses that broke windows get elevated to the status of terrorist to begin with? The idea that I find repulsive is how we are asked to become comfortable with the militarization of our city , because that is what it was - there was no provocation of any kind, or actual police work in return on the Monday before the event. And there was no police work during the event. There were military lines, a lack of responding to anything that didn't relate to securing a fence, and unwarranted arrests in relation to simply being near the fence, or being at Queen and Spadina afterward, or various other places that should not require any military response that assumes that all crowds contain terrorists.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:27 PM   #271 (permalink)
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Oh, brother.

You know what? I posted a longer clip of that in the exact same incident in this thread. It's here for you to see if you bothered to seek out the information and read people's posts. Those people decided they had a right to be there, so they organized a sit down on the grass.

I'll go back in the thread and find the longer video and paste it in this post soon.
ACGM... if this is the part where you start to get pissy then there's little point in us continuing to argue.

No, I haven't gone back through the entire thread and read every post from beginning to end. I responded to the video that was provided. If there's another one around then just provide a link to it (or direct me to the page that its' on) and that'll be fine.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:30 PM   #272 (permalink)
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ACGM... if this is the part where you start to get pissy then there's little point in us continuing to argue.

No, I haven't gone back through the entire thread and read every post from beginning to end. I responded to the video that was provided. If there's another one around then just provide a link to it (or direct me to the page that its' on) and that'll be fine.


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Scary shit right there.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:30 PM   #273 (permalink)
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I'm surprised they never involved the military. It would have been used as a good transition for the supposed switch from the current NATO mission in Afghanistan to the UN mission in the Congo. It would have taught them to protect the line and watch shit happen and not be allowed to do anything about it.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:32 PM   #274 (permalink)
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street median? looks like it.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:34 PM   #275 (permalink)
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I'm surprised they never involved the military. It would have been used as a good transition for the supposed switch from the current NATO mission in Afghanistan to the UN mission in the Congo. It would have taught them to protect the line and watch shit happen and not be allowed to do anything about it.
You know what? That's a very interesting point, regardless of whether you're being sarcastic or not.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:36 PM   #276 (permalink)
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I actually found that the overall reaction could have likely been much worse. My biggest problem is with what amounted to an over-reaction and a lazy assertion of force before the whole thing even began. I ate breakfast quite a distance from the Convention Centre on the Monday before the whole thing. There were almost as many police officers as people at that point already.

And of course some shmuck gets stopped with a crossbow and a chainsaw, which wasn't found to have anything to do with the summit or any related activities. But there was this guy's stuff shown off afterwards. Exactly why did he get his property confiscated? And why did the jackasses that broke windows get elevated to the status of terrorist to begin with? The idea that I find repulsive is how we are asked to become comfortable with the militarization of our city , because that is what it was - there was no provocation of any kind, or actual police work in return on the Monday before the event. And there was no police work during the event. There were military lines, a lack of responding to anything that didn't relate to securing a fence, and unwarranted arrests in relation to simply being near the fence, or being at Queen and Spadina afterward, or various other places that should not require any military response that assumes that all crowds contain terrorists.
Pretty bold statements LX.... not quite sure how you can make them though. Quite a bit of intelligence was gathered by the Toronto Police and for the most part it was good intel that lead to diffusing potentially dangerous situations.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:36 PM   #277 (permalink)
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street median? looks like it.
Yeah, could be. Club to the head? Pepper spray to the face? Definitely.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #278 (permalink)
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Actually, truth be told... most cops annoy the shit out of me. And that's probably because most that I've met are assholes (with some exceptions). That being said I realize that they work in a tough field and are often placed in high stress situations.

I'd like to see those clips of "innocent people" being beaten.

(withdrawn)
I can see why you'd say that I'm going by the "book".

What you call it "going by the book" I call it a new breed of police officers
with a university/college education in the background of human behavior, psychology; alternative conflict resolution, effective interpersonal communication, human diversity, effective interviewing techniques, crisis intervention and case management; with strong understanding of ethnic, cultural and lifestyle diversity as well as human rights...and a lot more.

These types of officers exist and are (unfortunately) rare.

I'd much rather deal with cop with this kind of background than with someone who only has his high school diploma and went through 8-13 months of police academy/training; where they barely touch up on the things which I listed above.

Like I said, if you can't handle the stress and risks that come with being a police officer then YOU SHOULDN'T FUCKIN GET INTO IT. But I know the "police culture" or the culture of the 'first responders' (EMS, Nurses, Firefighters) - it's not the healthiest by any means.

The stuff that goes on with in their circles is fucked up; high divorce rates, alcohol/drug abuse, depression, PTSD, exhaustion (overworked) ...etc. Most of these statistics are not release to public. All of these things have a huge impact on their work performance and how they deal with certain stations. And it's no secret that police develop a lot of 'prejudices' which result in constant abuse of their 'authority'.

So, I'd rather deal with a cop that's going by the "book" (which should mean that he's well educated and knows how to do his job effectively and appropriately) then deal with some ASSHOLE who gets off on his power trips and lives under constant assumption of: "It's us against them (public)".
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:43 PM   #279 (permalink)
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i've used OC/Pepper spray before, these sprays that they officers are doctored for warning. Proper spray is a jet spray, not a mist. Was the force necessary? No, but excessive force wasn't used.

What bugs me most is that people were given protest areas and routes. When you're sitting in front of a police line outside of these areas, don't act naive and ask where you're supposed to go.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:46 PM   #280 (permalink)
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I'd much rather deal with cop with this kind of background than with someone who only has his high school diploma and went through 8-13 months of police academy/training; where they barely touch up on the things which I listed above.

Like I said, if you can't handle the stress and risks that come with being a police officer then YOU SHOULDN'T FUCKIN GET INTO IT. But I know the "police culture" or the culture of the 'first responders' (EMS, Nurses, Firefighters) - it's not the healthiest by any means.

The stuff that goes on with in their circles is fucked up; high divorce rates, alcohol/drug abuse, depression, PTSD, exhaustion (overworked) ...etc. Most of these statistics are not release to public. All of these things have a huge impact on their work performance and how they deal with certain stations. And it's no secret that police develop a lot of 'prejudices' which result in constant abuse of their 'authority'.

So, I'd rather deal with a cop that's going by the "book" (which should mean that he's well educated and knows how to do his job effectively and appropriately) then deal with some ASSHOLE who gets off on his power trips and lives under constant assumption of: "It's us against them (public)".
I'm waiting to see if you get called an elitist. *jeopardy music*
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