G20 Summit - Page 13
Old 06-30-2010, 04:42 PM   #241 (permalink)
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I can see both sides of the argument that is going on in this thread, and I must say that I'm 100% behind 'trane on this one. 'trane is one of few who gets the bigger picture here and I must applaud him for standing up for what's right and just.

Police officers, although human like everyone else = make mistakes/errors, are still (and MUST BE) held to a higher standard than everyone else.

If you can't handle the stress of dealing with the public then simply don't go into law enforcement.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:46 PM   #242 (permalink)
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so if i ignore a 'warning for my own safety' and choose to enter a public space to make my voice heard on a matter that is of great importance to me, i deserve to be arrested?
Please don't tell me that all of the people who were arrested were legit, peaceful protesters who just wanted their voices to be heard.... because both of us know that's bull.

And like it or not... if you don't hold a license to march and a police officer asks you to vacate the premises and you refuse to.... sorry bud. You deserve what you get.

Is anyone outraged today as they walk around downtown? Are they still feeling as though we're living in a Police State and all of their actions are monitored?
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:50 PM   #243 (permalink)
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I can see both sides of the argument that is going on in this thread, and I must say that I'm 100% behind 'trane on this one. 'trane is one of few who gets the bigger picture here and I must applaud him for standing up for what's right and just.

Police officers, although human like everyone else = make mistakes/errors, are still (and MUST BE) held to a higher standard than everyone else.

If you can't handle the stress of dealing with the public then simply don't go into law enforcement.

the bigger picture is that the G20 was extremely successful and the idiots who wanted to ruin the image of canada by disrupting it failed. to me, that's the bigger picture. if it took a couple of bumps and bruises to get it done, so be it. we shined while the spotlight was on our country, for it, we shall capitalize.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:52 PM   #244 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pistol Pete View Post
I can see both sides of the argument that is going on in this thread, and I must say that I'm 100% behind 'trane on this one. 'trane is one of few who gets the bigger picture here and I must applaud him for standing up for what's right and just.

Police officers, although human like everyone else = make mistakes/errors, are still (and MUST BE) held to a higher standard than everyone else.

If you can't handle the stress of dealing with the public then simply don't go into law enforcement.
Meaning what exactly? That they should lay down their riot gear and try to sit down and TALK with potentially violent protestors?

It's unfortunate that all of the good that was done by the TO Police force was overshadowed by people looking for any kind of excuse to smear them.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:58 PM   #245 (permalink)
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Please don't tell me that all of the people who were arrested were legit, peaceful protesters who just wanted their voices to be heard.... because both of us know that's bull.

And like it or not... if you don't hold a license to march and a police officer asks you to vacate the premises and you refuse to.... sorry bud. You deserve what you get.

Is anyone outraged today as they walk around downtown? Are they still feeling as though we're living in a Police State and all of their actions are monitored?
you see torap, that's exactly the point. they weren't all legit, but the police don't have the right to just round up everyone, shake 'em all up, let the illegit ones fall out, and then release the rest. that's precisely my objection. that's a police state mentality.

i ask you this - during the civil rights movement, should the police have the right to arrest people that woudn;t go to the back of the bus? or perhaps the people that marched in objection to that policy?

freedom of expression and a right to protest are not dependent on the cause being expressed. the police don't get to choose who gets a voice.

and so far, the only one credible argument you could raise has not been raised. you could invoke the reasonable limits clause to show that the police had a right to limit expression in this situation. i would argue that it doesn'ty apply and we could have a conversation about that, but you ignore it becasue for you the police have the right to be arbitrary. i don't think that they do.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:00 PM   #246 (permalink)
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the bigger picture is that the G20 was extremely successful and the idiots who wanted to ruin the image of canada by disrupting it failed. to me, that's the bigger picture. if it took a couple of bumps and bruises to get it done, so be it. we shined while the spotlight was on our country, for it, we shall capitalize.
Well said sir.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:02 PM   #247 (permalink)
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Get out of the fucking way, and if not, don't whine. Never whine. Shut the hell up, when you are momentarily inconvenienced by being detained.
yessuh mista policeman, yessuh. i do what i's told mista policeman. yessuh...
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:08 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Meaning what exactly? That they should lay down their riot gear and try to sit down and TALK with potentially violent protestors?

It's unfortunate that all of the good that was done by the TO Police force was overshadowed by people looking for any kind of excuse to smear them.
Meaning that you don't allow your emotions to get the best of you, that you be rational, fair, and act in non arbitrary manner; that you poses excellent interpersonal skills and have respect and understanding towards others' differences (culture, race, ethnicity, sex...etc); that you have strong values and be person of high integrity; to be an example and always try to do the right thing.....and I can go forever with this. I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

You have to understand that it only takes a few bad apples to fuck up the whole image for the rest of the police. One of the most important things for a police officer (police agency) is the PUBLIC IMAGE.

The "tactics" which police used through the G20 Summit are those which I would expect from a third world country. It's WRONG. Period. This is not what they teach you in university, if you want to become a police officer (or become part of any other branch of the Justice System).

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Old 06-30-2010, 05:14 PM   #249 (permalink)
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you see torap, that's exactly the point. they weren't all legit, but the police don't have the right to just round up everyone, shake 'em all up, let the illegit ones fall out, and then release the rest. that's precisely my objection. that's a police state mentality.

i ask you this - during the civil rights movement, should the police have the right to arrest people that woudn;t go to the back of the bus? or perhaps the people that marched in objection to that policy?

freedom of expression and a right to protest are not dependent on the cause being expressed. the police don't get to choose who gets a voice.

and so far, the only one credible argument you could raise has not been raised. you could invoke the reasonable limits clause to show that the police had a right to limit expression in this situation. i would argue that it doesn'ty apply and we could have a conversation about that, but you ignore it becasue for you the police have the right to be arbitrary. i don't think that they do.
I don't think that there was much that was "arbitrary" about this situation TBH.

If the police rounded people up TODAY and detained them without cause then THAT would be arbitrary.

If the police had left everyone on the street and someone had been killed... and officer... a bystander.... what would people be saying about the cops now? Would everyone still be as up in arms about "civil liberties"?
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:20 PM   #250 (permalink)
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Meaning that you don't allow your emotions to get the best of you, that you be rational, fair, and act in non arbitrary manner; that you poses excellent interpersonal skills and have respect and understanding towards others' differences (culture, race, ethnicity, sex...etc); that you have strong values and be person of high integrity; to be an example and always try to do the right thing.....and I can go forever with this. I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

You have to understand that it only takes a few bad apples to fuck up the whole image for the rest of the police. One of the most important things for a police officer (police agency) is the PUBLIC IMAGE.

The "tactics" which police used through the G20 Summit are those which I would expect from a third world country. It's WRONG. Period. This is not what they teach you in university, if you want to become a police officer (or become part of any other branch of the Justice System).
Pete.... do you know any cops? I mean do you have any who are close personal friends? Because I think that you really need to talk to a few and gain some perspective into what they dealt with.

3rd world country? Did you see anyone getting beaten like Rodney King? Did you see anyone get shot with rubber (or real) bullets? Did you see people get sprayed with water cannons? Anyone even get tasered?

Not sure what you expected the officers to do....
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:24 PM   #251 (permalink)
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this was something i was glad to see
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:27 PM   #252 (permalink)
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Pete.... do you know any cops? I mean do you have any who are close personal friends? Because I think that you really need to talk to a few and gain some perspective into what they dealt with.

3rd world country? Did you see anyone getting beaten like Rodney King? Did you see anyone get shot with rubber (or real) bullets? Did you see people get sprayed with water cannons? Anyone even get tasered?

Not sure what you expected the officers to do....
pistol is exactly right. i might suggest that your personal cop friends are making you biased in this situation. people did get beaten. there are clips in this thread that show it.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:28 PM   #253 (permalink)
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this was something i was glad to see
+10000000
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:44 PM   #254 (permalink)
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Pete.... do you know any cops? I mean do you have any who are close personal friends? Because I think that you really need to talk to a few and gain some perspective into what they dealt with.

3rd world country? Did you see anyone getting beaten like Rodney King? Did you see anyone get shot with rubber (or real) bullets? Did you see people get sprayed with water cannons? Anyone even get tasered?

Not sure what you expected the officers to do....
Well, for those who don't know, I'm finishing my studies in the field of Criminal Justice at Mount Royal University, and over the past 4-5 years I've been in regular contact with current and ex-police officers. I have good friends who work in many different fields of our justice system, including corrections, social work, police and Canada border service agency (just to name a few). Oh, and I also have experience in security and loss prevention fields.

Besides hearing all kinds of stories (good and bad) from police officers, I've had the privilege to deal with the public (one-on-one), as security officer, and I'm not talking about your regular mall cop, so trust me when I say, "I know what I'm talking about".

Also, to address the point of if police should sit down and talk to the potential violent protesters:

Those in power (Police) should always try to use non-violent means to resolve a conflict, and for that you need to have smart and well educated (in sociology, psychology, psychiatry ...and so on) police force. If nothing else works then police should use all of the NECESSARY and APPROPRIATE (very controversial terms) force.

Again, if you haven't seen it, here is video that illustrates perfectly of what I see as how "Police" completely mishandled the station:

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Old 06-30-2010, 05:45 PM   #255 (permalink)
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Oh, brother, so much to respond to. Even as finished this post, people said more shit...ahahaha

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i know nothing of him. his story just sounds elaborated and falsified. call it a sixth sense, but he was using other peoples stories.
The part about the Guardian journalist was his own firsthand account. He saw that and tweeted his observations that night. His story has remained consistent.

As for the rubber bullets part, if you watched the "Straightdope" video that was posted, you can clearly see a police officer firing on a crowd. You can also see protesters bleeding. There are additional videos that show protesters getting hit and peppered sprayed while sitting down. That footage corresponds with Paikin's story. Given that Paikin has a reputation to uphold and an established career at stake, it is hard to believe he'd risk it by making shit up. And, as I've just explained, there is evidence to suggest what he's saying is true.

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After watching all of these police videos. I was just thinking in my head about how all these protesters will just increase the cost of security the next time G20 comes to Canada. Welfare addicts with nothing better to do, students who could be studying their tuitions worth instead, and other stuff. The great thing is that they aren't able to disrupt, slow-down or stop the G20 meetings at all. Business at usual with the exception that the tax-payer will be cleaning up the mess.
You're a [insert unflattering remark]

Welfare addicts? Students who could be studying?

1 - On what grounds can you substantiate that any of these people are welfare addicts? None. So, on behalf of those people, fuck you.

2 - School is out for most undergraduates. Many of them are currently working Monday to Friday summer jobs. Hence, their weekends are free. Furthermore, I'd say attending this type of protest is potentially educational, depending on what you make of it (what types of people you speak to, what types of things you see, how you use the time...etc.).

3 - Graduate students study year round but have a very flexible schedule. They can EASILY put in a 55 hour week and still make time to show up in downtown Toronto.

The funny thing is, a guy like Straightdope is probably more educated than you. I can't say for certain, but I'd bet on it. And there were dozens of people like Straightdope at those protests. Even professors were getting arrested.

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I have no sympathy for people who provoke confrontation, and then cry when confronted.
One could argue that the cops also provoked unnecessary confrontation. And that touches on Pistol Pete's point about the cops being held to a higher standard. Here's an idea: when people sit down in a public place to exercise their constitutional rights, don't charge at them, hit them, or spray them with pepper spray. That way, a confrontation won't occur. Sitting down in public is not provoking confrontation, when you're simply excercising a right. Charging at regular protestors IS provoking a confrontation. So is pulling random kettle maneuvers. The Cops are supposed to be above that shit.

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I'm sure that there were a few cops here & there who got out of line and probably abused their authority a buit but I'm not willing to paint the whole police force with the same brush. They weren't manning water canons and shooting people with plastic bullets.... they were holding a line and ASKING people to leave. If they didn't then they deserved what they got.

Sorry if you disagree 'trane... but that's JMO.
First off, I don't think anybody believes EVERY cop was a bad person that day. Some people were just following orders and maybe even did their best to soften the manner in which they employed those unjust orders. Others were complete assholes. I'm sure the actions varied. So, when you say you're unwilling to paint the whole police force with the same brush, I think you're really missing the point 'trane has tried to convey in this thread. It's not about every INDIVIDUAL cop. It's about an overall INSTITUTIONAL strategy that was employed (which was probably ordered from high up) how that strategy ended up violating individual citizens' rights.

Now some points:

1 - A few cops were out of line? A number of strategic moves were out of line. They involved more than a few cops. Even just the kettle maneuvers were bullshit.

2 - The "Straightdope" footage posted in this thread shows a police officer firing on the crowd. Was the officer firing plastic/rubber bullets? Maybe not. But whatever was shot out of that gun was powerful enough to knock a human being to the ground.

3 - There's a central question of disagreement in a lot of these posts: do you have to listen to anything the police say, regardless of whether it is unconstitutional?

Some people assume that, when the police say "leave" a public space, you are supposed to do so, regardless of the fact that you have a right to be there.

Other people believe that the police do not have a right to violate the constitution.

Where is the line drawn? Do you keep that line far away? Or do you let it creep a little? And if you let it creep a little? How much? How much is too far?

Some people want to keep that line far away and don't want it to creep, because that sets a precedent for it to creep further in the future. And one day, maybe you're some dude who is sleeping in his bed and you wake up with a gun in your face, like that veteranarian.

And even though SJ implied he was okay with that, I'm pretty certain any of you would be whining like bitches if that happened to you. SJ with a gun in his face is singing a different tune. This is the part where he makes up a story about somebody holding a gun to his face in the past.

I had no interest in protesting the actual G20 summit itself and would not have bothered to go to Toronto if I was still in Ontario. However, in a way, I'm glad that journalists and protestors did show up on Sunday to exercise their rights. To be clear, and so nobody strawman's me, I'm not endorsing disruptive activities. I'm talking about people who just walked around and sang "oh canada" or whatever.

Some of the posters on this forum have made me VERY GLAD those peaceful people showed up. I didn't really realize how important it might be until you all started yapping. At first, I thought it might be inconsequential, but now I see just how many of you will fucking cave under minimal pressure.

How the fuck will you react under a really tough threat? What will you guys tolerate when the state has even better excuses to use?

There are so many people that are willing to just cave and let the state do whatever it wants in the name of security. You have to draw the line somewhere or else they think they can just keep pushing the line. At what point do you say "you know, I'm uncomfortable with where the line is being drawn."

At what point do you get uncomfortable?
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:46 PM   #256 (permalink)
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that video is a load of crap.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:47 PM   #257 (permalink)
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pistol is exactly right. i might suggest that your personal cop friends are making you biased in this situation. people did get beaten. there are clips in this thread that show it.
Actually, truth be told... most cops annoy the shit out of me. And that's probably because most that I've met are assholes (with some exceptions). That being said I realize that they work in a tough field and are often placed in high stress situations.

I'd like to see those clips of "innocent people" being beaten.

(withdrawn)

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Old 06-30-2010, 05:55 PM   #258 (permalink)
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Actually, truth be told... most cops annoy the shit out of me. And that's probably because most that I've met are assholes (with some exceptions). That being said I realize that they work in a tough field and are often placed in high stress situations.

I'd like to see those clips of "innocent people" being beaten.

(withdrawn)

there are none. all there is, is clips of the police acting or reacting to situations. all these guys that were there witnessing first hand experiences must have been the only people there without a camera out recording every incident.

that one video thats been posted three times in here, the clips don't even match-up with what the author is even saying. queens park is our safe grounds, yet everyone is in the street.

again, i'm not denying that there wasnt police brutality, i just think there's a lot more people who are full of shit spreading false information.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:56 PM   #259 (permalink)
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that video is a load of crap.
Agreed. Am I supposed to believe that this was made by a non-partisan person with no agenda?

Please.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:58 PM   #260 (permalink)
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that video is a load of crap.
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Agreed. Am I supposed to believe that this was made by a non-partisan person with no agenda?

Please.


Just curious what aspects you find problematic?

Also, given that I've spoken with Straightdope's girlfriend before, I'm curious as to how you (or others for that matter) would characterize him.

I think you might be surprised by his background.

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