France wants to limit wearing a veil...
Old 01-26-2010, 09:16 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default France wants to limit wearing a veil...

From this morning's Globe.

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A parliamentary panel that wants Muslim women to stop veiling their faces recommended Tuesday that France ban such garb in public facilities, including hospitals and mass transit, and refuse residence cards and citizenship to anyone with visible signs of a “radical religious practice.”

The nearly 200-page report contains a panoply of measures intended to dissuade women from wearing all-enveloping veils in France. However, there is no call to outlaw such garments – worn by a tiny minority of Muslims – in private areas and in the street.

The 32-member, multiparty panel heeded warnings that a full ban risked being deemed unconstitutional and could even cause trouble in a country where Islam is the second-largest religion.

The language in the report was carefully chosen in an effort to avoid offending France's estimated 5 million Muslims – the largest such population in western Europe – and accusations of discrimination. Muslim leaders have already complained that the debate over the full veil coupled with an ongoing debate on French national identity has left some Muslims feeling their religion is becoming a government target.

The topic of the all-encompassing veil is charged with passion and politicking, and the panel failed to reach a consensus on whether any action was warranted, and what kind, despite universal agreement that veils covering the face are not wanted in France.
French report wants limits on Muslim face veil - The Globe and Mail
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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they've been talking about this for years and if it was close to being passed, and was deemed unpopular, I'm sure there would be rallies on the street from the public and the government would give in
if there is strong public support, French government usually caves in
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
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hmm.... interesting.

I have been told that in some middle east countries women HAVE to cover their hair if they are out in public regardless of their religious views.

Kind of the same thing here.

And i don't really agree with it.
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:29 AM   #4 (permalink)
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This is a continuation of a funny issue for me. I'm not a fan of Islam (maybe my least favourite of the three main monotheist religions) and I'm really not a fan of symbols of subservience (like the burka), but I also care a great deal about free expression.

It reminds me of when the Swiss banned Minarets. Countries that are supposed to represent freedom, liberty, and tolerance, are getting too caught up in the Muslims-Invading-Europe panic.
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Old 01-26-2010, 11:51 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Isn't this old news, cuz I swear I heard about this before. This is a bad move considering that France has about the second most Muslims in their country if I am not mistaken
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I believe towns in Quebec already implement no veil wearing in certain places.

I really don't know where to go with this but I must say I feel very uncomfortable when I'm in downtown Toronto seeing a Women draped with sheets and you can only see her eyes yet the husband is rocking a Tommy's shirt with Buffalo jeans.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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France has always been insecure as a country in terms of a country-wide identity. The French are vehemently opposed to anything non-French, I'm surprised they haven't already enacted a ban on Muslims period. France is an extremely conformist society, there's a rigid set of values and practices, anything else is taboo and unacceptable.

This isn't as much about France targeting Muslims as it is about France being extremely unilateral.
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Old 01-26-2010, 01:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zachus View Post
France has always been insecure as a country in terms of a country-wide identity. The French are vehemently opposed to anything non-French, I'm surprised they haven't already enacted a ban on Muslims period. France is an extremely conformist society, there's a rigid set of values and practices, anything else is taboo and unacceptable.

This isn't as much about France targeting Muslims as it is about France being extremely unilateral.
exactly correct. the government of france has been actively cultivating a distinctly french national identity for more than a century and is now struggling with how to accept diversity and not water-down frenchness.

there is a fantastic book about the cultivation of french national identity called "peasants into frenchmen" by eugene weber that i highly recommend.



i also recommend the film 'entre les murs' (the class) which deals with diversity of religion and identity in a downtown paris school. it's pretty slow moving, but extremely interesting.

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Old 01-26-2010, 01:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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This is a legit security threat though.

I am all for freedom of expression etc. but there were many men who were caught using this technique to cover their faces.

Definitely a touchy topic though.
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Old 01-26-2010, 04:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for the recommendations, 'trane.
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Am I wrong in my understanding that it is not at all a religious issue in a universal sense, but actually a cultural interpretation of the koran? I think if that's the case then it is something that should not be allowed to be imposed upon women within an entirely different culture. Otherwise it makes the cultures of the west complicit in the repression of women by cultural means. Saying that, I recognize it need not be entirely about repression, but it does seem to me to be rooted in that, and spread upon that basis. A part of me applauds France for trying to do this.
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This isn't so bad, these women can always turn to the alternative

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Last edited by GrannyFro; 01-27-2010 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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'trane i watched that movie and i loved it....it was very realistic and the film took neither the students or the teachers side, it just let the viewer take it in. Great film.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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'trane i watched that movie and i loved it....it was very realistic and the film took neither the students or the teachers side, it just let the viewer take it in. Great film.
i'm just glad i'm not a teacher. i had a strong urge to clobber esmerelda.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
Am I wrong in my understanding that it is not at all a religious issue in a universal sense, but actually a cultural interpretation of the koran? I think if that's the case then it is something that should not be allowed to be imposed upon women within an entirely different culture. Otherwise it makes the cultures of the west complicit in the repression of women by cultural means. Saying that, I recognize it need not be entirely about repression, but it does seem to me to be rooted in that, and spread upon that basis. A part of me applauds France for trying to do this.
This is exactly right. The Qu'ran preaches modesty in attire as opposed to completely covering up. As a Muslim woman, I dress modestly but have never worn a veil; however, my female relatives in Iran all cover up (and constantly ask me why I don't). Oh Canada, I *heart* thee.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:35 AM   #16 (permalink)
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That's wack its apart of their religion, France shouldn't be able to control waht they wear, especially since it's apart of Islam
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Religion is wack.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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This is ridiculous...

most of you believe that woman are forced to wear the burkha, in actuality you just watch to much western media, in extreme cases such as the taliban, some woman were forced, but there is no such thing except during taliban era in afghanistan were woman were forced to wear the burkha, but in most cases muslim woman chose to wear it because they believe in the spirtuality behind it, its thier choice and what say do you or the government of france have any say in what people do when it comes to thier religous beliefs.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JayJayW View Post
This is ridiculous...

most of you believe that woman are forced to wear the burkha, in actuality you just watch to much western media, in extreme cases such as the taliban, some woman were forced, but there is no such thing except during taliban era in afghanistan were woman were forced to wear the burkha, but in most cases muslim woman chose to wear it because they believe in the spirtuality behind it, its thier choice and what say do you or the government of france have any say in what people do when it comes to thier religous beliefs.
Women are forced to wear the Burkha in Saudi Arabia and Iran among other places, so I don't really see what your point is. I also don't understand how the bolded relates to the discussion at hand.

In France women obviously are not forced to wear the Burkha - those that do, do so for religious reasons and it is their choice only. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, France is an extremely unilateral society. While this movement is disgraceful it is also not surprising in the least.

As a Canadian I have been raised to respect and acknowledge multiculturalism and freedom of expression. The utter disregard of the Muslim dogma by the French majority is terrible. I empathize with France's Muslim population.

Last edited by thought; 03-01-2010 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Im a muslim (male), and I will tell you that women wearing the burka is a real touchy subject. In our religion, woman are to dress modestly, at least covering the hair, do not have to cover the whole body head to toe with a burka.

the problem lies where people start to misinterpret the Quran(religion in general) and adding their own cultural/personal beliefs into it. A woman DOES NOT have to wear a burka as long as she is dressed modest, but yet in some countries they are forced to.

for example, in Saudi Arabia they will not allow women to drive (really?), and people will take it as a reflection of the whole religion. In no where does it say woman cannot drive, matter of fact women have the same rights as men, but people try to add their own cultural/personal beliefs into it and justify it by saying its religion.

Anyways i can see where the french are coming from (for security?), but they are wrong for trying to impose this, if they allow this to happen than does that not now open the door them to tell you how to live your lifes....
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