Father kills man sexually abusing his daughter - Page 2
Old 06-12-2012, 09:11 AM   #21 (permalink)
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i can't know how i would react in that situation, so there is some understanding for what the guy was going through. that said, there are a couple of things that are of paramount importance, in my view -

-people can't take the law into their own hands. we have a system of justice for this exact reason. even if the father did this out of a severe reaction, he needs to be held accountable for his actions. to do otherwise is to sanction retributive justice by individuals, outside the law. that is not something that can be accepted in civil society.

-the girl had just been through a traumatic experience. depending on what actually happened (and assuming something did happen, which may not be the case) she experienced something ranging from a latent trauma (something she may not understand now but will later on in life) to a significant physical and mental trauma. the last thing she needs on top of that, as bjjs said, is to witness her father bashing in the head of another person. this would be a horrific experience for a 4-year old in a calm situation. let alone a 4-year old who has just experienced abuse. for the sake of her own mental health, this was a very poor decision by the father.

all that said, it is much easier in hindsight than in the moment to take a sober look at the situation. but this is why the justice system needs to hold him accountable. making the point that the situation was emotionally charged cannot be an excuse to defer accountability and allow for retribution. beating a man to death in front of a traumatized 4-year old is neither a good nor an acceptable solution.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:58 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I should add that I dated a girl in high school that was RAPED (yes, penetration) by a neighbor when she was 4 y/o!!!

The guy spent 6 months in jail and she grew up beside the guy. (Farms, but still too close).

One day we were walking in town, she pointed the guy out on the street.

Yes, there are sick people out there.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:13 AM   #23 (permalink)
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i can't know how i would react in that situation, so there is some understanding for what the guy was going through. that said, there are a couple of things that are of paramount importance, in my view -

-people can't take the law into their own hands. we have a system of justice for this exact reason. even if the father did this out of a severe reaction, he needs to be held accountable for his actions. to do otherwise is to sanction retributive justice by individuals, outside the law. that is not something that can be accepted in civil society.

-the girl had just been through a traumatic experience. depending on what actually happened (and assuming something did happen, which may not be the case) she experienced something ranging from a latent trauma (something she may not understand now but will later on in life) to a significant physical and mental trauma. the last thing she needs on top of that, as bjjs said, is to witness her father bashing in the head of another person. this would be a horrific experience for a 4-year old in a calm situation. let alone a 4-year old who has just experienced abuse. for the sake of her own mental health, this was a very poor decision by the father.

all that said, it is much easier in hindsight than in the moment to take a sober look at the situation. but this is why the justice system needs to hold him accountable. making the point that the situation was emotionally charged cannot be an excuse to defer accountability and allow for retribution. beating a man to death in front of a traumatized 4-year old is neither a good nor an acceptable solution.
ok, you're on the jury, do you vote to make an example of him, as you say, to let eveyone else know that should they ever find themselves in the same situation, they should do nothing and just let the "law" sort it out? Can you sit in a jury room and say, "wow, I will never know how horrible that must be or what I would do, but we need to fry this guy for ignoring the system in his heat of the moment, how dare he subject his daughter to that violence"?

Go ahead and play that part in the debate, say "yes, I would, because its the right thing to do". Do it. Its easy to from 2000 miles away. Try it from 2 feet.

Same Law of course that many here rip to shreds on other threads for a myriad of reasons, not to mention, police brutality, which, had this guy not got unlucky and died, he was MOST CERTAINLY due for some serious doses of....perhaps even die.

Ya no, the guys here saying he is wrong and should be ashamed, ya you're right, he should have been an emotionless sack of civil justice, the political system is our god, it shall always be obeyed.

there is a massive difference betweem vigilante behavious and an in the moment reaction to save your child from harm. its interesting to not that on my facebook page is where I first read this. A good friend of mine who is older, and an actor posted it. The interesting thing was that the comments that followed, postd by almost entirely friends with children, were either in full on support, or complete sympathy for the man and the daughter. Not one was advocating sitting back and allowing the judicial system levy its punishment on the guy molesting the little girl. They are all very interesting people. Likely they just see it from the eyes of a parent.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:22 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I don't have a daughter, but I can only imagine how a father must feel knowing that someone abused his child that way. It isn't like a cut or a scrape... he can't put a band-aid on it, kiss her forehead and tell her it'll get better. That's got to lead to a pretty helpless feeling and, as a result, reaction.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
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ok, you're on the jury, do you vote to make an example of him, as you say, to let eveyone else know that should they ever find themselves in the same situation, they should do nothing and just let the "law" sort it out? Can you sit in a jury room and say, "wow, I will never know how horrible that must be or what I would do, but we need to fry this guy for ignoring the system in his heat of the moment, how dare he subject his daughter to that violence"?

Go ahead and play that part in the debate, say "yes, I would, because its the right thing to do". Do it. Its easy to from 2000 miles away. Try it from 2 feet.

Same Law of course that many here rip to shreds on other threads for a myriad of reasons, not to mention, police brutality, which, had this guy not got unlucky and died, he was MOST CERTAINLY due for some serious doses of....perhaps even die.

Ya no, the guys here saying he is wrong and should be ashamed, ya you're right, he should have been an emotionless sack of civil justice, the political system is our god, it shall always be obeyed.

there is a massive difference betweem vigilante behavious and an in the moment reaction to save your child from harm. its interesting to not that on my facebook page is where I first read this. A good friend of mine who is older, and an actor posted it. The interesting thing was that the comments that followed, postd by almost entirely friends with children, were either in full on support, or complete sympathy for the man and the daughter. Not one was advocating sitting back and allowing the judicial system levy its punishment on the guy molesting the little girl. They are all very interesting people. Likely they just see it from the eyes of a parent.
if i am on the jury i hear the evidence and try to decide if it meets the criteria for a conviction. that is what a jury is charged to do. it is not about making an example, it is about looking at the case and the law and making the right decision.

i understand that the father reacted, and i do not expect him to have been perfect. but i also hold him accountable to what the law says and for what he did. murdering people is not ok, except under particular circumstances. the question is whether or not this situation meets that standard.

as to the system always needing to be obeyed - this is too simplistic. there are means of protest and ways of changing law - and of civil disobedience - but that is not the same thing as disregarding the law. and we are defnitely at mercy of following the system when we break the law. there are enough protections under it and means within it to appeal and to make your case. at the end of the day law is progressive in this way, and it gives you the opportunity to defend what you have done.

i have no idea what you are trying to get at with the police brutality thing, so i'm not going to address that.

and your last paragraph is just anecdotal. as the father of two young girls, i think i am seeing this in the eyes of a prent as well. and i want to know that my neighbours are not allowed to take the law into their own hands when they feel they have been wronged. i don't believe in 'stand your ground' type of laws, as they do not make our children safer.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:43 AM   #26 (permalink)
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well I certainly hope you never have to see the same day that man did, because I fear most of all you know and feel will crumble around you. I respect what you're saying, as well as understand it completely trane, honestly, I do. the problem I see is that I think its far too easy to lay down a text book response about how ou so-called political system is suppose to work.

As for my last paragraph, please explain because for some reason, I am offended by that statement, maybe its the word "just". Don't reduce th opinions of my friends to anecdotes. they are soem pretty intelligent and fantastic people. They have their own viewpoints. you dont agree, fine, but I would imagine then its fair t say thats all you opinion is worth too because all it is really is a practical set of protocol you can get from a year one Psych and Poli sci combo. Hardly what I would lean on to lead me though every crisis in life.

Is that fair, or should we maybe back to bus up and sympathize a little but with conflicting opinions here.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:44 AM   #27 (permalink)
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one last thing. Standing your ground made that one little girl safer.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:08 AM   #28 (permalink)
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well I certainly hope you never have to see the same day that man did, because I fear most of all you know and feel will crumble around you. I respect what you're saying, as well as understand it completely trane, honestly, I do. the problem I see is that I think its far too easy to lay down a text book response about how ou so-called political system is suppose to work.

As for my last paragraph, please explain because for some reason, I am offended by that statement, maybe its the word "just". Don't reduce th opinions of my friends to anecdotes. they are soem pretty intelligent and fantastic people. They have their own viewpoints. you dont agree, fine, but I would imagine then its fair t say thats all you opinion is worth too because all it is really is a practical set of protocol you can get from a year one Psych and Poli sci combo. Hardly what I would lean on to lead me though every crisis in life.

Is that fair, or should we maybe back to bus up and sympathize a little but with conflicting opinions here.
well i sure hope i never see that either. i also stated that i didn't expect him to act perfectly, but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility.

the last paragraph is anecdotal because that is what it is. there are no facts there, just opinions of people you know - anecdotes. saying that they are reacting as parents is simply another anecdote. i also feel that i am reacting as a parent, so i don't see how either one of us more accurately represents that perspective.

and to your other post, we have no idea whether or not this protected the girl as we don't know what happened. maybe the guy was backing away? maybe he wasn't? maybe the father was incorrect in what he thought he saw? maybe he wasn't? that's why there should be a case in the justice system - to present the facts and look at them in the eyes of the law. and this is the justice that the alleged assulter should have to face. one where he has the opportunity to defend himself, not one where the witness gets to be judge, jury and executioner.

i am unsure whther this is an act of protection. i don't know what happened, and i don't know what psychological damage the father has or has not just inflicted upon his daughter. it may well have simply been an act of retribution, which is not the same thing.

and, further, i don't believe that protecting one person in a single circumstance is a necessary reason for allowing what could be a larger social problem (vigilantism). that is a political question aside from the merits of the case here. and that is what is at the centre of the zimmerman case as well. i believe that if that kind of law is in effect it will just mean people on the streets with guns, allowed to judge risk and mete out justice as they see fit. that, to me, is a much more dangerous situation.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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don't make what I'm saying more or less than what it is.

what we are told....

Man walked in and saw his daughter being molested, attacked and repeatedly punched assailent. Assailent died from the blows.

That isn't Vigilante behaviour, its heat of the moment action. There is a terribly massive difference. So please stop making this into a social debate because it isn't.

that man will go through the system. he will have to answer for whatever happened. And if we are not being told the right story the debate is moot, but if we are, to feel anything but 100% sympathetic for the position he was thrust into, and then reacted to is callou and short sighted. reports also daid the man was terrible distraught after the fact. His life just turned to hell. The other man lost his life. the little girl has likely years of councilling, if she can afford it, ahead of her to help her deal with this all.

Its a sad story that deserves sympathy, bot judgement. The judgement part is just too easy trane.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:32 AM   #30 (permalink)
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SJ.... what exactly was happening to the girl? how many times did the man hit the assailant to fatally wound him?

we don't know. but i'm pretty sure that once he arrived on the scene, the daughter was not in any further danger. so... the question begs.... when is it acceptable to lose your shit and beat someone to death? what situations allow for that as an excuse? let's make a list.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:34 AM   #31 (permalink)
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dunno, never been there, not about to judge anyone that has. You can, but I don't thnk you have the right to, not beyond havig the right to an opinion. SO havine it, but lets not be catty and ask me to make lists of times I might think its ok to kill people.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:36 AM   #32 (permalink)
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that man will go through the system. he will have to answer for whatever happened. And if we are not being told the right story the debate is moot, but if we are, to feel anything but 100% sympathetic for the position he was thrust into, and then reacted to is callou and short sighted.
so we are in agreement, then.


i am away this afternoon, but, as i mentioned in our pm conversation, we can continue this later.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #33 (permalink)
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we don't know but im prety sure??????

dude, if you dont know, you dont know, you cannot be pretty sure of eff all.

this discussion on the facts as we know thm whch are very limited.

Feel how you want, based upon what I read, I sympathize with the guy and his daughter. And based on what I read...if its true, I really can'r say much for the fellow that died more than I never wish death upon anyone, but somtimes you maybe put yourself at risk. Again, sad chain of events.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #34 (permalink)
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i don't think it is catty... i think it is absolutely critical.

the dead man had a right to a fair trial. that's how the system works. instead he was executed.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:43 AM   #35 (permalink)
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dude, if you dont know, you dont know, you cannot be pretty sure of eff all.
you seriously believe that a man gets caught molesting a child (allegedly) and tries to continue after being discovered? that seems entirely implausible.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Good for ya bud. Really. I don't rellythink anything from me from here on out will be good so I'm gonna just stop now. I'm glad you guys get er all figured out though.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:45 AM   #37 (permalink)
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you seriously believe that a man gets caught molesting a child (allegedly) and tries to continue after being discovered? that seems entirely implausible.
do you really think that it took that man more than half a second to go from the doorway to wherever it was happening?
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:48 AM   #38 (permalink)
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do you really think that it took that man more than half a second to go from the doorway to wherever it was happening?
maybe... maybe not. that would be great information to hear at a trial.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:54 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I got a 15 years old dougther...i'd go to jail knowing i'd done the right thing...
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:20 PM   #40 (permalink)
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i don't have any kids but i can honestly tell you this
i catch somebody molesting/raping my 4 year old daughter...i beat that fucker to a pulp

and damn the consequences
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