Does Toronto have an inferiority complex? - Page 3
Old 07-07-2009, 06:20 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Haha, well you've got me all figured out I guess... Although I'm really not that guy. I just happen to participate in a rather underrated activity: reading.

And there have been studies by Nobel-prize winning philanthropists and activists that actually link capitalist countries to more deaths than communist countries in their heyday. Even when you include obvious travesties like the Chinese Cultural Revolution and famines that were the result of completely wrong policies and corruption in government; those have left about 30 million people dead. So don't be so quick to say that we're better off with US as the superpower. It's certainly debatable, but it's not that simple.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:25 PM   #42 (permalink)
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well, yes, it's almost human nature to dislike ppl different then yourself, but America didnt go on a mission to assimlate ppl like many european countries did, literally taking out complete races and cultures in the pursuit. Europeans live in the biggest glass house, yet throw the most stones. "It was awhile ago" isnt really a great excuse, why should the ones in power now act nicer to you then you did when you had the power??
You think it's all about power? I'd like to think there's also such a thing as common human history and global evolution, especially now that the world is a 'village'.

It was a while ago is not a good argument, that's right. But I think you're dragging old cows from the ditch (that's a Dutchism for beating a dead horse for you), I consider that hardly a strong feat either.
By the way, all European colonial slavedrivers are dead. Just sayin'.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:27 PM   #43 (permalink)
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...Maybe this thread should be moved to another section of the site? Just a random thought...
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:28 PM   #44 (permalink)
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good points Mr4thQ.

I agree with some of the stuff you said. I think a lot of rationale behind the Raptors being made somewhat into outcasts is a result of the treatment of the American media. It's happened time and time again in the past... and this you really can't deny.

Frankly, with the Raptors being the only non-American team, it's always been in the franchise's best interest to bring in good non-American players - in my opinion at least. Good that Colangelo agrees, or so his actions would show.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:29 PM   #45 (permalink)
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...Maybe this thread should be moved to another section of the site? Just a random thought...
as long as we stick to the issue and not some history book debate, it's fine.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:34 PM   #46 (permalink)
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blaming americans for the effects of capitalism is a strange concept. They werent the only ones participating in this venture, the europeans seem to be on board. Kind if like blaming the europeans for the mess that south america and africa are in, i mean we could go that route too, but it's hard to prove.

It's nice to live in an idealistic world, where it's about dignity, humanity and sharing. But, that's not how things are, i think considering the amount of power the Americans have had, they have been more restrained and fair then any superpower before it, therefore being an improvement, there's always room for more improvement, but to compare them to what the Europe did to Africa, South America, the Carribean, Asia and basically anywhere they went, isnt fair. The Americans let many countries prosper and never had it's eye on world domination thru force and hostile takeovers. Again, they have made bad decisions, every country does, but the world wanted America to step up in WW2 and they did, they were a pretty quiet power up til then. But it seemed the world needed America, and they took advantage of the situation, like any country would.

Anyways, ill stop debating this, kinda fun tho, but not fitting for Raptors forum.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:42 PM   #47 (permalink)
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as long as we stick to the issue and not some history book debate, it's fine.
Yeah, well, some people are way off course. We're supposed to be discussing the Raptors and not this other junk. That's meant for another thread, not this one.

Let me help get it back on course.

Its very clear that some in the American media have made it a point to piss on the Raptors. Do they deserve it? Some of it, yes, but not all. For some in the American media its like the Raptors can do no right. People in my mind who shit out their mouth in regards to the Raptors are Charlie Rosen, Tony Mejia and Steven A. Smith to name a few. Those three over the past five or more years in particular have taken it upon themselves to trash the Toronto Raptors consistently and unfairly again and again. This however does not give us the right label ALL American media as prejudice towards the Raptors. Some stay true to the game an call it like it is and I respect them doing doing their job while maintaining integrity.

At the end of the day I see the Raptors fan base and the organization itself as having no more of a chip on its shoulder than other underachieving franchises around the league, it just so happens that this franchise has a lot larger fan base than others and a lot more media coverage. There are a lot more eyes directed at the Raptors than at the Kings or the Grizzlies. The problem(if you feel compelled to call it that) is its a centralized (Raptors) community.

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Old 07-07-2009, 06:42 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Ugo, all I can do is to suggest some leftist literature/media. I know it carries a negative stereotype in the mainstream, but really, it proves its claims with concrete facts and is not afraid to say what is really going on.

But anyway, yes, the US media has no respect for the Raptors. Last season, for example, we were scheduled for a game to be shown on ESPN (or ESPN2) against the Wiz, I believe. By that point in the season, both teams were pretty awful and clearly out of playoff contention (not mathematically, but almost there). I live in the tri-state area so the only Raptors games I can watch on TV are those against the Nets or the Knicks, 8 games per year, which is pretty lame because I have to watch horrible streams online instead. Obviously, I was looking forward to seeing us play on national TV. When I turned the game on, it was the Magic game instead. I was understandably a little pissed off.

I know media moguls are only trying to make money, and I'm sure that game fared a lot better on the ratings than the Raps game would have, but come on. I'm sure if it was Atlanta and Memphis playing, they would have showed that game and not replaced it with a more marquee matchup.

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Old 07-07-2009, 06:50 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Its very clear that some in the American media have made it a point to piss on the Raptors. Do they deserve it? Some of it, yes, but not all. For some in the American media its like the Raptors can do no right. People in my mind who shit out their mouth in regards to the Raptors are Charlie Rosen, Tony Mejia and Steven A. Smith to name a few. Those three over the past five or more years in particular have taken it upon themselves to trash the Toronto Raptors consistently and unfairly again and again. This however does not give us the right label ALL American media as prejudice towards the Raptors. Some stay true to the game an call it like it is and I respect them doing doing their job while maintaining integrity.
Obviously not all American media is guilty of this, but still on a few occasions the Raptors have been blasted seemingly for not much more than not being American.

A major beef i have with US media, is how they are the ones who seemingly start to convince / remind our young star players in interviews that playing in Toronto is not good enough.. They always throw around phrases like, "you're playing away from the spot light, "small market", "less media exposure", etc.

The media make a bigger deal about that shit than they ought to. And if you ask me, that has a pretty big effect on the players themselves. Over time, i think some players start to buy into the talk.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:01 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ugo Ferst View Post
blaming americans for the effects of capitalism is a strange concept. They werent the only ones participating in this venture, the europeans seem to be on board. Kind if like blaming the europeans for the mess that south america and africa are in, i mean we could go that route too, but it's hard to prove.
I'm sure you'd love to prove it if you could. Btw the financial crisis we're in is America's fault.

Quote:
It's nice to live in an idealistic world, where it's about dignity, humanity and sharing. But, that's not how things are, i think considering the amount of power the Americans have had, they have been more restrained and fair then any superpower before it, therefore being an improvement, there's always room for more improvement, but to compare them to what the Europe did to Africa, South America, the Carribean, Asia and basically anywhere they went, isnt fair. The Americans let many countries prosper and never had it's eye on world domination thru force and hostile takeovers. Again, they have made bad decisions, every country does, but the world wanted America to step up in WW2 and they did, they were a pretty quiet power up til then. But it seemed the world needed America, and they took advantage of the situation, like any country would.
So don't hold the powers that be accountable, is that what you're saying?
They're the biggest power, they're gonna do what they want, let's be greatful that they're not as bad of the Europeans of the 17th century, people!

The truth is America fucked up big time under Bush and pretty much the whole world is happy that Obama is his successor. Hate all Americans for Bush? No. Love them for Obama. A little.

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Anyways, ill stop debating this, kinda fun tho, but not fitting for Raptors forum.
Too bad, cause I'd destroy all your arguments in a heartbeat.

I just think I'm better, being European and all.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:03 PM   #51 (permalink)
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good points Mr4thQ.

I agree with some of the stuff you said. I think a lot of rationale behind the Raptors being made somewhat into outcasts is a result of the treatment of the American media. It's happened time and time again in the past... and this you really can't deny.

Frankly, with the Raptors being the only non-American team, it's always been in the franchise's best interest to bring in good non-American players - in my opinion at least. Good that Colangelo agrees, or so his actions would show.
Thanks.

Do you have some examples of bad media, that's new to me.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:09 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Obviously not all American media is guilty of this, but still on a few occasions the Raptors have been blasted seemingly for not much more than not being American.

A major beef i have with US media, is how they are the ones who seemingly start to convince / remind our young star players in interviews that playing in Toronto is not good enough.. They always throw around phrases like, "you're playing away from the spot light, "small market", "less media exposure", etc.

The media make a bigger deal about that shit than they ought to. And if you ask me, that has a pretty big effect on the players themselves. Over time, i think some players start to buy into the talk.
But the thing is, it's not just talk.

They really ARE playing away from the spotlight, Toronto really IS a relatively small market, they DO get significantly less media exposure, and it really DOES hurt their chances at getting into the all-star game, etc.

I know it's aggravating that the American media doesn't pay that much attention to Canada, but it's the truth. And it's hard to blame the US media: you have to target your audience, and their audience is overwhelmingly in the states.

To a lesser extent, the media does the same thing here: look at the amount of coverage Canadian hockey teams get compared to American ones on The Score or Sportsnet. Yes, they cover the American hockey teams too, but there is a definite priority given to the Canadian teams. They show the Canadian highlights first, the Canadian teams generally have longer highlight packs, and there are significantly more interviews with Canadian players/coaches, etc. And that is as it should be: their market is Canada, and their viewers are overwhelmingly Canadian.

You also see it manifested in hockey players attitudes about playing in the states. Yes, some basketball players might not want to come play in Toronto, but a lot of Canadian hockey players don't want to go play in Tampa Bay or Phoenix or other non-hockey cities. They get less media coverage, aren't treated as superstars because nobody watches hockey in Tampa, and are often willing to sign with a Canadian team for less.

My point is that this sort of thing is natural, and that we do just the same thing.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:13 PM   #53 (permalink)
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obv we do the same thing, but they arent jealous of us, so when we show non stop curling and nhl coverage and dont mention their nhl players/teams or their curling players, they dont give a shit, because truely, they dont give a shit. It's pathetic to get all worked up about it, shows how jealous we really are.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:43 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Ugo, all I can do is to suggest some leftist literature/media. I know it carries a negative stereotype in the mainstream, but really, it proves its claims with concrete facts and is not afraid to say what is really going on.

But anyway, yes, the US media has no respect for the Raptors. Last season, for example, we were scheduled for a game to be shown on ESPN (or ESPN2) against the Wiz, I believe. By that point in the season, both teams were pretty awful and clearly out of playoff contention (not mathematically, but almost there). I live in the tri-state area so the only Raptors games I can watch on TV are those against the Nets or the Knicks, 8 games per year, which is pretty lame because I have to watch horrible streams online instead. Obviously, I was looking forward to seeing us play on national TV. When I turned the game on, it was the Magic game instead. I was understandably a little pissed off.

I know media moguls are only trying to make money, and I'm sure that game fared a lot better on the ratings than the Raps game would have, but come on. I'm sure if it was Atlanta and Memphis playing, they would have showed that game and not replaced it with a more marquee matchup.
When the Raps win they will be shown on National TV
I remember in the VC/playoff days they were shown on ESPN 10 times a year
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:01 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Thanks.

Do you have some examples of bad media, that's new to me.
i touched on it in a prior post. There is just an undertone of inferiority displayed by the american media when it comes to playing in Canada.

And i totally disagree with some of those claims Bogus. Relatively speaking there are many smaller markets in the US, that aren't constantly reminded just how small they are by the media the way we are by the same media.

Toronto is a pretty big market. Especially on the world stage. The Turkoglu signing is maybe a big step in taking advantage of that.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:31 PM   #56 (permalink)
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i touched on it in a prior post. There is just an undertone of inferiority displayed by the american media when it comes to playing in Canada.
Sorry, read it just after posting.

Is it different with the Canadian NHL teams?

Btw, back when VC played for the Raptors I had cable+ (with NBA) and they broadcasted plenty of Raptors games. I always had the impression they only showed games that were on US national tv.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:36 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Sorry, read it just after posting.

Is it different with the Canadian NHL teams?

Btw, back when VC played for the Raptors I had cable+ (with NBA) and they broadcasted plenty of Raptors games. I always had the impression they only showed games that were on US national tv.
not really sure about the NHL part. I'm not a big hockey fan, so i can't really say.

Regarding the US broadcasts, there was a time when Raptors weren't getting any airtime, but i think that that was mostly due to the fact that we were just an awful team. Are you actually living in Holland? If so, i'd be curious how many raptor games you can actually watch on TV there.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:52 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Are you actually living in Holland? If so, i'd be curious how many raptor games you can actually watch on TV there.
Yes. Honestly, I don't know myself. I usually download games when I feel like it.

I had the privilige of feeding my parents' cats during the Conference finals this year, they have extra channels, so I could watch a few games live. Maybe I'll get it myself, live coverage beats downloads, allthough I like not having to watch commercials during TO's and the freedom to watch the game of my choice.
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:05 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Yes. Honestly, I don't know myself. I usually download games when I feel like it.

I had the privilige of feeding my parents' cats during the Conference finals this year, they have extra channels, so I could watch a few games live. Maybe I'll get it myself, live coverage beats downloads, allthough I like not having to watch commercials during TO's and the freedom to watch the game of my choice.
You know you can watch live games online for free do you?
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:09 PM   #60 (permalink)
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In Italy two channels broadcasted NBA games (both satellite channels), about 3 or 4 games a week. Raptors were present like any other team +\-. And i know that is the NBA that choose the games to be broadcasted in europe, with no difference from country to country.
I watched many Raptors games live on-line, but you know, is late night here during the games.
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