Do you believe in free will? - Page 2

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View Poll Results: Does free will exist
Yes 20 80.00%
No 5 20.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-14-2009, 02:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
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as you wish...
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Old 09-14-2009, 03:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read up young lads.
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Old 09-14-2009, 03:34 PM   #23 (permalink)
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wiki? really sj?

might as well read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_willy
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:09 PM   #24 (permalink)
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wiki? really sj?

might as well read this.

Free Willy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
With all due respect, on highly trafficked articles Wikipedia demonstrated better accuracy than Encyclopedia Britannica. Second, Wikipedia's articles that are well-referenced are very strong. Come up with criticisms of the content, not how or where the content is hosted.



Many people keep citing their ability to choose as evidence of free will. To this question I ask the following:

Why did you make the choice that you did?

One note of interest is that we become conscious of making a choice after the choice has already been made. When we make a choice, we tend to think that the choice was made 30-50 ms after we had already made that choice. I'll see if I can track down the paper that demonstrated this.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:12 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If Wiki says it, it is real!

HA!

I use Wiki because I have free will.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligeia View Post
With all due respect, on highly trafficked articles Wikipedia demonstrated better accuracy than Encyclopedia Britannica. Second, Wikipedia's articles that are well-referenced are very strong. Come up with criticisms of the content, not how or where the content is hosted.



Many people keep citing their ability to choose as evidence of free will. To this question I ask the following:

Why did you make the choice that you did?

One note of interest is that we become conscious of making a choice after the choice has already been made. When we make a choice, we tend to think that the choice was made 30-50 ms after we had already made that choice. I'll see if I can track down the paper that demonstrated this.
If I can just type that Abraham Lincoln was shot by Corey Heart, it is not a good point of reference.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:23 PM   #27 (permalink)
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as you wish...
hehe - I only got this the second time around. nicely done.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligeia View Post
Many people keep citing their ability to choose as evidence of free will. To this question I ask the following:

Why did you make the choice that you did?

One note of interest is that we become conscious of making a choice after the choice has already been made. When we make a choice, we tend to think that the choice was made 30-50 ms after we had already made that choice. I'll see if I can track down the paper that demonstrated this.

that's the same point that cory made, and it's a misdirection at best. we don't make choices in isolation. we make them after careful or imperfect consideration of all the elements we chose to include in that consideration. and those choices are based on previous careful or imperfect decions as to what constituted the parameters of that decsion. and those choices were based on the ones before that.

and none of them were perfect, logical emotional, or otherwsie. they were the product of imperfect human consideration. and all mixed together they become a continuum of a person's thought, each one of them making the web more complex and creating all sorts of irreconcilable beliefs that ultimately go into the pot.

it is in this context, with this background, that each choice is mulled over. and when we decide on something it is usually out of a number of equal possibilities.

this is the point at which we choose, at which we have free will. and we do it constantly, in many different circumstances.

and rather than narrowing the spectrum, as cory seems to have suggested, each choice makes it more possible that the next one is free, because at the root of it all, no person is smart enough to understand the totality and guarantee that they have no ultimately unreconcilable beliefs. if we all had a perfectly coherent worldview then our choices could be said to derive from a patterned computation, but since we don't there are irreconcilable variables that will always make that computation flawed and erratic.

hence the need to choose.

hence free will.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:26 PM   #29 (permalink)
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hehe - I only got this the second time around. nicely done.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:27 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Trane: as you wish...

hehe - I only got this the second time around. nicely done.

Wishing is for children.

Men do what makes sense.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:29 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Wishing is for children.

Men do what makes sense.
That is the saddest thing I have read today.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:31 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I don't think absolutes work at all. I voted yes, but I think there is much inbetween yes and no that applies. It's very complex. If we could come close to understanding how our brains work then we might be able to come to some conclusions that approach one absolute or another, but it is just one of the limits of knowledge that we can't really breach fully, along with the nature of the universe that we occupy. We falter along a path that attempts to understand, but there is nothing that can be called a truth, just many truths expressed in many ways.

I don't think anybody outside of a grand creator can have absolute free will, but I don't think we have so little awareness, as though some lowly amoeba, to have nothing approaching free will. That said, I couldn't really tell you where we might be on a sliding scale. I don't see how we could ever know.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:33 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Wishing is for children.

Men do what makes sense.
I am no man then. And proud of it. I know of horrible crimes against humanity that "made sense" and disregarded wishes.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:39 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
I don't think anybody outside of a grand creator can have absolute free will, but I don't think we have so little awareness, as though some lowly amoeba, to have nothing approaching free will. That said, I couldn't really tell you where we might be on a sliding scale. I don't see how we could ever know.
there is no creator, and we have absolute free will to choose they way we want to approach the world. we can't always exert that free will due to externalities, but we always have the freedome to decide.

there is no more reason to believe in a creator than to believe that everything has always and will always exist. both are equally possible. but that thought that everything needed a starting place just begets the question of what created the starting place, ad infinitum. that spiral leads me to doubt any potential of it being true.

thus there is no creator, and i choose to believe that everything is random and had no beginning.

thus free will.
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:01 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I know of horrible crimes against humanity that "made sense" and disregarded wishes.
I think the crimes you speak of only made sense because people "wished" they made sense, not because they actually did.
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I think the crimes you speak of only made sense because people "wished" they made sense, not because they actually did.
No - actually in purely selfish terms they did make sense.
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:16 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Death

and Taxes.

After that it's pretty much open no?
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:24 PM   #38 (permalink)
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death isn't a matter of will.

taxes you can choose to pay or not to pay, as you can with any legislation. you just have to pay the consequences. there's a big difference between free will and anarchy. just think of asceticism.
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:29 PM   #39 (permalink)
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you missed my point.

sigh.

I hate slumming in this part of the Messageboard........

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Old 09-14-2009, 05:30 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
there is no creator, and we have absolute free will to choose they way we want to approach the world. we can't always exert that free will due to externalities, but we always have the freedome to decide.

there is no more reason to believe in a creator than to believe that everything has always and will always exist. both are equally possible. but that thought that everything needed a starting place just begets the question of what created the starting place, ad infinitum. that spiral leads me to doubt any potential of it being true.

thus there is no creator, and i choose to believe that everything is random and had no beginning.

thus free will.
I generally agree, but I can't neglect to see that even when I feel free to decide on something, the process of deciding itself has been shaped by so many outside forces, and with limits to knowledge I can't know just how much of me is being freely expressed.

But then it's not something I place absolute value upon. I'm actually more at ease seeing myself not so purely defined and self-contained. I like being a part of the impermanence that you make reference to. There is a lot of freedom in that in an odd way, even though it is not assertive. I think it is possible to experience the world as though riding a wave, in which case randomness that is shared by my actions and choices, and the randomness imposed upon the me via the wave come into play together. That's where I find the most understanding of myself as well as the world, and that's the inbetween-ness that I attempted to allude to. I exist beyond the boundaries of my own skin, and the world and all of it's impermanence offers up the same randomness that it offers everything else. I am both incredibly insignificant and infinite.
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