is dissecting an animal right? - Page 3
Old 11-25-2010, 06:41 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Idk she was all like Yo Kenneth let's dissect a frog. I could never put myself to do it
why?

if you think it is gross, i guess that's one thing (although i don't think that is a good reason to avoid education, but it might be understandable). if you won't do it because you are somehow worried about the animal's rights or something like that, i have to ask again if you are a vegetarian or if you wear leather or other animal products?
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Old 11-25-2010, 06:46 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Fair enough ... but then, what's the point of understanding the literature if you cannot express it properly? It's fine if it's a verbal discussion and you don't need proper spelling and punctuation but when you're writing something down/typing it out, isn't it better to understand something AND be able to express it competently rather than understand it and explain it with horrible spelling and grammar?
I don't think Yusek would necessarily disagree. That's why he said 'Cuda was right and wrong. In theory, 'Cuda had a point. But, in practice, english classes don't always do those things. Remember, we're talking about a kid who is already in high school.

I could be wrong, but I thought Yusek was just pointing out what appears to be a fact regarding the current state of many high school english classes. You're certainly right that students would profit from a greater emphasis on spelling and grammar (it would have helped me..heck, I still heavily rely on spell check and word processors). The point is, many high schools just aren't doing it. I transferred from french immersion to an english high school, so I don't know how much emphasis is placed on spelling and grammar in english classes during the early years. I'm guessing they cover that early, 'cause I wasn't getting those types of lessons in high school. That time had passed.
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Old 11-25-2010, 06:54 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Studying language is complicated. On the one hand, we require common signs (words) to represent objects and concepts so that we can understand each other. On the other hand, language has always been fluid and there is no clear reason why, for example, we should prefer to write without split infinitives rather than with them. Still, I can attribute my own ability to write and speak, with what I would consider a moderate degree of success, to extensive reading of writers who have a diverse vocabulary and do, generally, stick to grammatical prescriptions. There is no doubt that reading more than "the lowest common denominator" of writing has helped my own growth in countless ways.

As for what is most important in school, it is a very complex question. If it comes to sheer money, math is, on average, going to be the most important. I'm thinking of engineering and finance here.

And yet, even within those disciplines, it takes so much more than proficiency in solving math equations to be really successful. So regardless, I think a holistic education is the best option.

For me personally, the two most important areas, speaking very broadly, are philosophy and science. In intellectual matters, I think almost anything of meaning can be subsumed under these two categories (again, speaking very broadly). I also think a great deal of the difficulties we face stem from misunderstanding and lack of appreciation of these two spheres of knowledge. I wouldn't recommend that any student pass up any opportunity to add to their understanding of their existence.
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Old 11-25-2010, 06:55 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Well, that's a reasonable point. But, based on my experiences, Yusek has a point. Kids can get 85% or above in high school english and still enter university with serious writing difficulties.
That's exactly why I said schools should go back to basics.

There's something seriously wrong with the school system if kids are acing their English classes yet not grasping the basic concepts. I'm talking about people my age, too. I'm 27 and half of my ex-classmates are horrid spellers, have no idea what grammar is, etc, etc....

I still say reading is important for anyone to learn these things. I loved books - they taught me more than any English teacher.

Do you disagree then, that kids (hell, PEOPLE) these days don't know their basic language & written skills as they should???? My entire point was just that these things are important.

Last edited by Barracuda; 11-25-2010 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:20 PM   #45 (permalink)
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math doesn't tell you how to be a good boss, or how to relate to humans in any way. it also doesn't tell you anything about past mistakes or lessons learned from predecessors.

and we have computers to do much of it for us anyways.

ralating with humans should be a totally natural thing if encouraged early in life. dont need to study to do that.


and who programs said computers?
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
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The original point you made.

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English classes. So important.
Okay, Barracuda, let's get this settled. Nobody is saying that having a firm grasp of spelling and grammar is not important. Nobody. I think people are just interpreting Yusek's response differently.

Yusek responded to a specific point you made in a particular context. We are talking about a high school kid here. You then brought up english classes. If (big if) I understood Yusek correctly, he was just saying that focusing on english classes at the high school level isn't necessarily going to improve a student's spelling and grammar. That's why he said "you're right" yet also "wrong". In theory, yes, you're right that studying grammar is important, but in practice, that isn't happening IN CLASSES. You even said that you learned more on your own than from your english teacher.

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That's exactly why I said schools should go back to basics.
You said that afterwards. And, yes, I agree. I even stated in my response to Taz that I would have benefited from a curriculum that rewarded students for paying greater attention to grammar. Well, I might have. Truth of the matter is, I was not interested in anything school related until university. It might not have helped..haha

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There's something seriously wrong with the school system if kids are acing their English classes yet not grasping the basic concepts. I'm talking about people my age, too. I'm 27 and half of my ex-classmates are horrid spellers, have no idea what grammar is, etc, etc....

I still say reading is important for anyone to learn these things. I loved books - they taught me more than any English teacher.

Do you disagree then, that kids (hell, PEOPLE) these days don't know their basic language & written skills as they should???? My entire point was just that these things are important.
No argument here. I would just point out that many generations of people have complained about others not knowing how to spell, read, and write properly. This has been a problem for a while. It probably just seems worse because the Internet throws it in our faces on a daily basis. To be clear, that does not mean that I think everything is okay. We should always be trying to improve literacy.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:30 PM   #47 (permalink)
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English classes. So important. Kids these days have no idea how to spell or even SPEAK properly. Punctuation is a damn mystery.

It actually upsets me to see how some of you guys spell and structure your sentences. So, please. Take more English classes, Fancy was dead on.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:32 PM   #48 (permalink)
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ralating with humans should be a totally natural thing if encouraged early in life. dont need to study to do that.


and who programs said computers?
if you spend all of your time studying math and nothing else, you are almost guaranteed to not be able to relate to most people. the study of much of history, literature, philosophy, etc is the study of human experience. an education in these areas takes you well beyond what mom can teach you in the house and what kids teach you on the playground.

people who are computer programmers program computers. pretty obvious i would think, no? but that doesn't mean that math is the most important thing, which is what i was responding to. and computer programming is typically not a high paying job in the sense that windex was describing. so what is your point here?
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:32 PM   #49 (permalink)
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In my hs, it's well known for arts York but the English course doesn't teach grammar at all. All I did this year was read the hunger games and Macbeth. I did a lot of work on anaylizing text and writing journals
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Im all for learning biology but do they really need kill to thousands or more frogs to learn biology. I dont see what are you going to learn there that you cannot be tought in a well explained video. Im not really against it, but I dont think it is very practical. And I feel for the frogs.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #51 (permalink)
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If we want to be really accurate, the underpinning of computer science (or, more specifically, computer programming) is logic and language (syntax and semantics). Math is also derivative of logic. So I don't think it is even possible that math could be the most important.

Mind you, I still assume the goal of understanding who you are, what you do, why you're doing it, etc. I don't know why we'd want to live without at least an approximation of that goal.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:44 PM   #52 (permalink)
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if you spend all of your time studying math and nothing else, you are almost guaranteed to not be able to relate to most people. the study of much of history, literature, philosophy, etc is the study of human experience. an education in these areas takes you well beyond what mom can teach you in the house and what kids teach you on the playground.

people who are computer programmers program computers. pretty obvious i would think, no? but that doesn't mean that math is the most important thing, which is what i was responding to. and computer programming is typically not a high paying job in the sense that windex was describing. so what is your point here?
the basis for all programing is a grasp of mathmatics.

literature is a waste of time in regards to studying it. it isnt not a practical thing whatsoever to know, has nothing to do in my opinion, with the human condition, just merely someones imagination that tells a tale and is woven into a metaphor just to make it more relavent. the only thing it is good for is that likeminded fans of specific books have something common to talk about with similary fans of said books and a signing. Go to a book store or coffee shop with books on the walls and there isnt a whole lot of conversations going on with people sitting near each other.

ot: i feel the same way about art. Piss in a jar that has a crucifix in it is not an interpretation on how modern sciety views christianity, it is just piss in a jar./ot

History I love, but it only lends itself to a limited use in everyday life. should people know hisstory yes, does history help people to prevent specific things from happening again, hopefully. and does history show us the way to ake all the advancement(through mathmatics) that make the world a better place-absolutly.

and philosophy isnt anything that for the most part that is going to parlay into everyday conversation any more tan mathmatics is. people can cary on very fun, civil conversations and debates that has nothing to do with an understanding of it. most of us here can debate basketball without ever having studied it. in fact someone who basis their notions on human relations on it is more than like going to be viewed as pretentious by a majority of the population in the world. it is a useless study.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:46 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Never mind. Not relevant.

Have you ever read any philosophy of mathematics?

Last edited by Ligeia; 11-25-2010 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:54 PM   #54 (permalink)
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whether or not math has anything to do with programming has nothing to do with my point. i don't disagree with you that it is part of the root, but that has nothing to do with high paying jobs or with whether or not our business execs need to know math. come on snooch, are you even listening to what i have been saying?

as to the rest of your post, i can only say that you failed to grasp the point of studying literature and art. completely failed. we study these things for innumerable reasons, some of which include an understanding of the mindset of the public during certain historical periods, an exposition on the politics or circumstances of writers in very specific situations vis-a-vis government and religious institutions, expressions of creativity that tell us about the human condition, descriptions of experiences and phenomena, articulations of differing world views, encouragements and suggestions regarding ways to look in to our own experiences, our own past, our own thoughts, etc. if none of this is practical, i have no idea what you are doing with your time.

and one more point - the idea that we should study only practical things is mind-boggling. why bother studying the cosmos then? or the history of the universe? or how the pyramids were built? or anything to do with ethical theory? or etymology?

although i now have a much deeper understanding of your posting history.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:58 PM   #55 (permalink)
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About the "which subject is the most important" debate:

I agree, English is among the top in importance. I hate to admit it. English is a frustrating and boring class, but it helps with all other subjects. The skills you pick up in English (for example writing skills) help you performance for other subjects, as well as everyday life.

Math is also important. It can be applied to a lot of things in real life. I'm not sure if you can apply to complicated stuff to real life, but it certainly helps a lot with number-related courses, jobs, etc.

Science is important to real life, since it explains a lot of things. It builds knowledge about how things work, and can help you apply numbers and words to real life situations.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:13 PM   #56 (permalink)
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The point is, many high schools just aren't doing it. I transferred from french immersion to an english high school, so I don't know how much emphasis is placed on spelling and grammar in english classes during the early years. I'm guessing they cover that early, 'cause I wasn't getting those types of lessons in high school. That time had passed.
That's interesting ... I didn't know that. I went to a British high school in the UAE and there was A LOT of emphasis placed on grammar and spelling. We had whole sections of our O and A Level English exams dedicated to punctuation.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:18 PM   #57 (permalink)
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What snooch says here reminds me of a philosophy that is relevant to my expertise: the logical positivists.

The positivists put forth an argument called verificationism that is probably best summarized in AJ Ayer's Language, Truth, and Logic. The essential point was that a statement could only have meaning if it could be determined if that statement was true or false.

The program largely collapsed when it was pointed out that this position or statement itself (particularly in its strongest form) could not be verified, nor was it really tautologous. It is an idea full of complications that are far from resolved.

That's something you can learn from history, philosophy, and science. Perhaps to you that is unimportant, but I consider it critical in my understanding of the world.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:32 PM   #58 (permalink)
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That's interesting ... I didn't know that. I went to a British high school in the UAE and there was A LOT of emphasis placed on grammar and spelling. We had whole sections of our O and A Level English exams dedicated to punctuation.
I don't know if my high school experience was the norm across Canada. But I can relate to what Yusek was saying. Even at top level Canadian universities, you still get students who have lots of difficulty writing a first year paper. Yet, for some reason, some of those same students entered university with respectable marks in high school english. *shrugs shoulders*
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:36 PM   #59 (permalink)
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whether or not math has anything to do with programming has nothing to do with my point. i don't disagree with you that it is part of the root, but that has nothing to do with high paying jobs or with whether or not our business execs need to know math. come on snooch, are you even listening to what i have been saying?

as to the rest of your post, i can only say that you failed to grasp the point of studying literature and art. completely failed. we study these things for innumerable reasons, some of which include an understanding of the mindset of the public during certain historical periods, an exposition on the politics or circumstances of writers in very specific situations vis-a-vis government and religious institutions, expressions of creativity that tell us about the human condition, descriptions of experiences and phenomena, articulations of differing world views, encouragements and suggestions regarding ways to look in to our own experiences, our own past, our own thoughts, etc. if none of this is practical, i have no idea what you are doing with your time.

and one more point - the idea that we should study only practical things is mind-boggling. why bother studying the cosmos then? or the history of the universe? or how the pyramids were built? or anything to do with ethical theory? or etymology?

although i now have a much deeper understanding of your posting history.
history is a good thing, i said that, i just said it was irrelevant in everyday conversations.

And most people read books for the stories, not to better understand what it was like to live in a certain age. I'll look at a history book for that and get not just a single persons point of view but on actual accounts of what happened.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:45 PM   #60 (permalink)
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What snooch says here reminds me of a philosophy that is relevant to my expertise: the logical positivists.

The positivists put forth an argument called verificationism that is probably best summarized in AJ Ayer's Language, Truth, and Logic. The essential point was that a statement could only have meaning if it could be determined if that statement was true or false.

The program largely collapsed when it was pointed out that this position or statement itself (particularly in its strongest form) could not be verified, nor was it really tautologous. It is an idea full of complications that are far from resolved.

That's something you can learn from history, philosophy, and science. Perhaps to you that is unimportant, but I consider it critical in my understanding of the world.
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