Blackwater and Pirates
Old 12-01-2010, 11:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Gotta love mercenaries.....

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In late 2008, Blackwater Worldwide, already under fire because of accusations of abuses by its security guards in Iraq and Afghanistan, reconfigured a 183-foot oceanographic research vessel into a pirate-hunting ship for hire and then began looking for business from shipping companies seeking protection from Somali pirates. The company’s chief executive officer, Erik Prince, was planning a trip to Djibouti for a promotional event in March 2009, and Blackwater was hoping that the American Embassy there would help out, according to a secret State Department cable.
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According to that cable, Blackwater had outfitted its United States-flagged ship with .50-caliber machine guns and a small, unarmed drone aircraft. The ship, named the McArthur, would carry a crew of 33 to patrol the Gulf of Aden for 30 days before returning to Djibouti to resupply.

And the company had already determined its rules of engagement. “Blackwater does not intend to take any pirates into custody, but will use lethal force against pirates if necessary,” the cable said.
How does one organization first GET these weapons and secondly, what allows them to use lethal force?
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:29 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Oh I dunno, maybe the fact that "Pirates" will kill anyone they can and just steal what they want, when they want.

The world is an ugly place, and sometimes the Government won't get involved because it becomes hard to do.

I have no problem with companies hiring these guys to protect their ships. Fuck the pirates. They'er Pirates, this is the game they play.
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:31 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
Oh I dunno, maybe the fact that "Pirates" will kill anyone they can and just steal what they want, when they want.

The world is an ugly place, and sometimes the Government won't get involved because it becomes hard to do.

I have no problem with companies hiring these guys to protect their ships. Fuck the pirates. They'er Pirates, this is the game they play.
So, vigilante justice is allowed all of a sudden?
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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yep.

If you can't count on the so called Gov. to protect you, yet you have to accomplish the task of shipping, what else can you do? Become an idealist and wait for the stars for a perfect world to align? Strip down, smoke a joint and sing songs of freedom? World keeps spinning, and these Pirates deserve anything they get.

I think your beef should be with the people who are elected to protect international waters.... not the guys benefitting from their horrible attention to detail.
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
So, vigilante justice is allowed all of a sudden?
There? in this case?

I am actually all for it
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Y'arrrrrrrrrr.

(Sorry, someone had to.)
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
yep.

If you can't count on the so called Gov. to protect you, yet you have to accomplish the task of shipping, what else can you do? Become an idealist and wait for the stars for a perfect world to align? Strip down, smoke a joint and sing songs of freedom? World keeps spinning, and these Pirates deserve anything they get.

I think your beef should be with the people who are elected to protect international waters.... not the guys benefitting from their horrible attention to detail.
My problem is that a private enterprise has access to military technology when a certain nation forbids other private enterprises to own this same technology.

How does this message make any sense. We need to forbid terrorist organizations and stop them from obtaining weapons of mass destruction (based on my understanding unmaned drones and 50 cal. weapons fit the bill) but we'll let a private enterprise control them? Really? How does that make ANY sense? Oh, we know who operates Blackwater or whatever they're called now. They're OUR boys. Look, they fly an American Flag, so they're good!

It's the message I have some serious problems with and allowing essentially, mercenaries to do this job.

And while I do agree that international waters need to be patrolled more vigilantly, I do not believe this should be held in the hands of private individuals.

No matter what, these individuals do not have the right to simply use deadly force. They're a private organization. They're not military. They're not a government etc.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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There? in this case?

I am actually all for it
One could argue that the pirates are simply exercising their own form of vigilante justice upon richer nations and companies.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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One could argue that the pirates are simply exercising their own form of vigilante justice upon richer nations and companies.
True, I understand the message (is bad), I understand that they are pirates themselves but the governments (all of them) unwilling to stand up and protect citizens and commerce against illegal acts is a cause. Cause and effect.

Palpatine was controlling the empire, and it took smugglers and terrorists to right the wrong.

I am all for terrorism as long as it follows my belief system, and what I feel is right. I know thats a strong message but its the truth.

The French and American Revolutions....all acts of terrorism.

In some cases I can support using force to stand up for what you believe in.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
My problem is that a private enterprise has access to military technology when a certain nation forbids other private enterprises to own this same technology.

How does this message make any sense. We need to forbid terrorist organizations and stop them from obtaining weapons of mass destruction (based on my understanding unmaned drones and 50 cal. weapons fit the bill) but we'll let a private enterprise control them? Really? How does that make ANY sense? Oh, we know who operates Blackwater or whatever they're called now. They're OUR boys. Look, they fly an American Flag, so they're good!

It's the message I have some serious problems with and allowing essentially, mercenaries to do this job.

And while I do agree that international waters need to be patrolled more vigilantly, I do not believe this should be held in the hands of private individuals.

No matter what, these individuals do not have the right to simply use deadly force. They're a private organization. They're not military. They're not a government etc.
+1 cg. completely agree.
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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It is verging on insane to compare the American and French revolutions, where human rights were proclaimed and advanced, and the individual celebrated and empowered, to these fucks in Blackwater, who have a worldview that is all about advancing a brand of muscular christianity and ultimately establishing theocracies that could rival the worst cases of problematic islamist states. They are all about power for themselves in the name of a fucked up cause so remote from the original values enshrined by past revolutionaries, that said revolutionaries would surely rush off somewhere to overdose on laudenum if they ever had an inkling of what was to come.

The pirates do not just kill anyone and steal what they want. They are kids that have seen their own resources stripped away from them for next to nothing, and who are given guns and instructions by those that wield some speck of authority over them in a state that was allowed to fail while the oil kept flowing. They are one step above sex slaves in Thailand, and are hardly some kind of terrible threat causing a problem with no other solution than unquestioned bloodshed. The weapons put in their own hands came from Western nations that dumped guns and ammunition all over the continent of Africa so that young Africans could kill each other in proxy wars within the global to and fro of the cold war's influences. The corruption, the guns, the starvation, all came about from the US and the USSR vying for spots on the map they could paint red or blue. And the makers of the weapons, the whole while, made an insane killing. It is those manufacturers of death that seized the greatest advantage in the game, and it is that pit of fuck that Prince's Blackwater has dove into with a certain zealotry added to the original profit motive. They behave as though they are sanctioned to act on our behalf, but they in fact operate under their own principles, and generally above any kind of rule of law. If the world is an ugly place, they are doing everything they can to make it so, or worse. That doesn't excuse the actions of pirates, but can we please weigh one side where an entire population has been left powerless and helpless in the wake of a great deal of external political interference and corporate pillaging, against self-righteous bible-thumpers that assume great power, privilege and riches for themselves without ever needing to worry about being held to account? If we really need Blackwater, then I worry less about the ugly parts of the world, and much more about what we have become. Bring on the laudenum.

And the beautiful thing for us - is these fucks are working for the Canadian government in Afghanistan. Be happy that your tax dollars are going right into their pockets.
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Ok LX, I agree with almost everything you said...my point wasn't in real support of blackwater but support of vigilantist stepping up when government fails.

...Outside of justifying the pirates actions. The Pirates themselves could be considered freedom fighters. My point was simply it all depends on your beliefs how any extremists are viewed. It is a fine line between freedom fighters/revolutionaries/ the republication alliance/terrorist and the only qualification can really come from your belief system.

I believe in an innate "right" and "wrong" judged by me. That is not a good or bad thing, it just "is".

Further more, I did not compare the revolutions to the acts of anyone other than to say they could be considered acts of terrorism....and that remains true
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:59 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Yeah - I went a bit over the top. I just think it's very important to go beyond a simple cause and effect approach to these things. And This Prince dude just represents absolute scum in my eyes. There is also a Russian guy that ended up being a huge arms dealer, and commandeering a big part of the planes from the Soviet regime after the cold war ended. He too ended up being used by western countries to do some really shitty stuff. It's like this great ideological battle, where both sides proclaimed the other as being utterly evil, just devolved into a situation where evil is something that is accepted and required, and not at all combatted or even kept in check very well. Our interests are supposed to be served in the big picture, but to me it points to the need to re-define our interests entirely, because otherwise that evil is going to bite us bigtime.
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Old 12-01-2010, 04:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I gave up trying to save the world. It isn't happening.

so.

I am for killing pirates.

And if Pirates are indeed simply refugee status victims, then I am all for them killing Blackwater guys.

It's like Benzo reiterated for me..... its about somebody stepping up in the short time, to protect people who shouldn't have to worry about being shot or robbed.

Waiting for the Govs of the planet to fix things is insanity
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Old 12-01-2010, 05:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
I gave up trying to save the world. It isn't happening.

so.

I am for killing pirates.

And if Pirates are indeed simply refugee status victims, then I am all for them killing Blackwater guys.

It's like Benzo reiterated for me..... its about somebody stepping up in the short time, to protect people who shouldn't have to worry about being shot or robbed.

Waiting for the Govs of the planet to fix things is insanity
You make the future american Taliban very happy. Who is talking about saving the world? Is it not important to define problems properly, and from that perspective attempt to actually solve them?

Who has been shot? Just the pirates. Yes people have been robbed and held hostage, and there are all kinds of legitimate forces that can prevent that from happening, but you want to empower some evil dicks that think they are on a mission from God? I hear North Korea is a swell place to live. If anybody gets out of hand while they are starving, they know how to take care of it. You just have to be able to accept power being in the hands of an evil authoritarian that has no problem killing. And that doesn't appear to be a problem for you.

I mean you really have a problem with an actual military that is held accountable? Really?
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Y'arrrrrrrrrr.

(Sorry, someone had to.)
Aaaarrrrr matey, pass me a bottle of rum.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:30 AM   #17 (permalink)
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i am all for it but there must be strict rules of ingagemnet...

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but will use lethal force against pirates if necessary
thats got to be the key...besides, its not like they are going pirate hunting, they are getting paid to help defend a vessel under attack...i honestly dont see whats wrong with this, you are protecting hard working people from thieves and murderers...

the crew of a vessel has no way to defend themselves at all, none...thats why you see couple of pirates in little 20foot boats takeover huge container ships....its all nice and dandy when sailing on protedted canadian & american waters but ita a little diffenrent when your off the coast of africa and the closest help is days away and there are 5 guys with ak47 onbaord.

if the countires/governments cant protect their own waters then why cant companies hire their own security so they can protect their property and crew...

Last edited by VanCity; 12-06-2010 at 04:37 AM.
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