Bin Laden is Dead - Page 7
Old 05-02-2011, 03:02 PM   #121 (permalink)
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I am saying that it is all a matter of perspective. We don't get to hear their side. We hear what we are told their side of the argument is. That is no way to make decisions. Our "bad guy" hid in poverty in caves and theirs lives on a ranch worth millions in Texas. Everything we condemn Bin Laden for is exactly what the United States government does on a FAR grander scale everyday.

We don't know all of his reasons for doing what he "did" and now we won't ever get the chance. Convenient isn't it?
Dude, he laid all of his reasons out numerous times. Have you not watched the videos or listened to the audio? We know 'their side'.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:06 PM   #122 (permalink)
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I think what one side here is arguing for, is having a greater perspective on things.

It's not as black and white as it has been made out to be. Bin Laden is a mass murderer. Ok. Fine. It's that simple?

Under this scenario should THIS man (I won't identify him) be seen as mass murderer and met with the same fate:

A group of men walk into a town. Realize they don't like the looks that are being given to them and decide to kill 30 people at will. Walk out and leave.

Is this group of men mass murderers and should they face the same punishment as was doled out last night?
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:06 PM   #123 (permalink)
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We disagree on your point. I think you have to equate the 'horrificness'.

If Bin Laden was living in the Canada and the USA wanted his ass dead....doors open.
sure, if we opened the doors. but i sure as hell would not be ok if they just came in and greased him.

back to equating horifficness - who gets to do that? the wronged party? the superpower? who has the final say in judging when a horrific deed is horrific enough to justify an assasination in a foreign and sovereign territory? because if we are saying the 'wronged' party gets to decide, we should be ready for this to happen within our borders and we shouldn't object. and if we say the superpower gets to decide, i guess we all have to hope they don't start pointing at us. i am open to other suggestions as to who gets to decide, but i think we're all better off if it is up to a supra-national body like the icc.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:14 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
I think what one side here is arguing for, is having a greater perspective on things.

It's not as black and white as it has been made out to be. Bin Laden is a mass murderer. Ok. Fine. It's that simple?

Under this scenario should THIS man (I won't identify him) be seen as mass murderer and met with the same fate:

A group of men walk into a town. Realize they don't like the looks that are being given to them and decide to kill 30 people at will. Walk out and leave.

Is this group of men mass murderers and should they face the same punishment as was doled out last night?
Did the group of men go on video, say they were going to do it? Did they cheer it afterwards, did they say they would do it again?

Did they walk into the town with the intention of mass murder?

Your information is incomplete
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:14 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:21 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Dude, he laid all of his reasons out numerous times. Have you not watched the videos or listened to the audio? We know 'their side'.
To continue to be "devil's advocate" to your point; I make videos like the ones we saw for a living. We were all robbed of the chance to get the story from the horse's mouth. We have such a limited perspective of "their side" because our perspective has been limited. Just as theirs has. The point is that if the US is committed to changing attitudes they just suffered a major loss. Violence begets violence. (nice picture by the way... it's classy. You've clearly lost loved ones to gun violence.)
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:27 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by griffthecat View Post
To continue to be "devil's advocate" to your point; I make videos like the ones we saw for a living. We were all robbed of the chance to get the story from the horse's mouth. We have such a limited perspective of "their side" because our perspective has been limited. Just as theirs has. The point is that if the US is committed to changing attitudes they just suffered a major loss. Violence begets violence. (nice picture by the way... it's classy. You've clearly lost loved ones to gun violence.)
How do you know the US killed Bin Laden?

I think Batman killed him.

I drew a comic like that for a living.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:29 PM   #128 (permalink)
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To continue to be "devil's advocate" to your point; I make videos like the ones we saw for a living. We were all robbed of the chance to get the story from the horse's mouth. We have such a limited perspective of "their side" because our perspective has been limited. Just as theirs has. The point is that if the US is committed to changing attitudes they just suffered a major loss. Violence begets violence. (nice picture by the way... it's classy. You've clearly lost loved ones to gun violence.)
You declare jihad and the killing of innocent civilians in videos?

I'm very pro-gun control, have never touched a gun, nor would I want to. It's a photo. Gah.

If you think that this man wasn't guilty of mass murder, you're in a miniscule minority. Honestly. This is the first I've heard anyone say the things you're saying, unless I'd heard it before and brushed it off because of its ridiculousness. You - and others on here - somehow equate my 100% approval of the end of this psychopath's life as support for US intervention and foreign policy, which I, in fact, have a big problem with. But even the mindfuck of all of that doesn't change what this man did and what he stood for. The world has been rid of one of its most sinister human beings.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:32 PM   #129 (permalink)
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How do you know the US killed Bin Laden?

I think Batman killed him.

I drew a comic like that for a living.

Batman don't kill nobody, you know that.


Ha.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:36 PM   #130 (permalink)
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You declare jihad and the killing of innocent civilians in videos?

I'm very pro-gun control, have never touched a gun, nor would I want to. It's a photo. Gah.

If you think that this man wasn't guilty of mass murder, you're in a miniscule minority. Honestly. This is the first I've heard anyone say the things you're saying, unless I'd heard it before and brushed it off because of its ridiculousness. You - and others on here - somehow equate my 100% approval of the end of this psychopath's life as support for US intervention and foreign policy, which I, in fact, have a big problem with. But even the mindfuck of all of that doesn't change what this man did and what he stood for. The world has been rid of one of its most sinister human beings.
being the 'other on here' in question, i feel compelled to respond. i am suggesting that being ok with an assasination means you should preobably be ok if one goes the other way. could you tell me how this is wrong?

how can you have a big problem with us intervention into other sovereign nations, but be totally ok with this assasination on foreign soil? is it just because he was a bad guy? what am i missing here?

i'm not unhappy that he's dead, i'm asking questions about what kind of presedent this sets. that's relevant because we may soon be dealing with the backlash. maybe we won't, and the us is that powerful and al queda is now that weak. but if that's what i'm putting my hopes in, it terrifies me.

for me, the issue is not whether or not he deserved to die, but what the idea of state sanctioned assasinations does to international stability.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:37 PM   #131 (permalink)
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How do you know the US killed Bin Laden?

I think Batman killed him.

I drew a comic like that for a living.
Keep laughing funny guy, because you can. You get to read comics and make jokes. Why didn't you enlist to fight when you saw it happen? I'm guessing the reason is that you haven't been pushed to the brink yet. Nothing has intruded on our cozy existence enough. I'm not into conspiracies, I don't just take one side at face value. We need to ask questions. What would possibly drive these people with limited means to want to battle Goliath? It's easy to say it's their fault while you read your Batman comic and make jokes. Do the hard thing and ask questions.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:38 PM   #132 (permalink)
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I understand the need to do things right - but in this case I think it was the only way to do things right. It was way too risky to try to capture this guy with the help of Pakistan or anyone else. Everytime this guy has been cornered - except for the time they were meters away from getting him in Tora Bora and then had to stop the operation due to the Iraq war - he has gotten away with the help of high level people in those countries. Pakistan has been betrayed by their intelligence services and military, and those same people are going to screw anybody.

Is anybody out there not rejoicing about this? I fail to see the violence begets violence argument. It would have been tremendous had the US done this in Tora Bora and not gone into Iraq. And in terms of values, I have an enormous problem with the use of torture and the failure to bring US war criminals to justice, as well as using kangaroo courts to try current detainees, the majority of which are harmless and innocent. But I also think that it is plain and clear who tipped the balance in terms of violence, including a great deal in Iraq and throughout the middle east. Yes - it was done with the aim of bringing change, but that change turned out to be backwards and the random violence worked against the real and positive change forward that people have called for.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:42 PM   #133 (permalink)
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You declare jihad and the killing of innocent civilians in videos?

I'm very pro-gun control, have never touched a gun, nor would I want to. It's a photo. Gah.

If you think that this man wasn't guilty of mass murder, you're in a miniscule minority. Honestly. This is the first I've heard anyone say the things you're saying, unless I'd heard it before and brushed it off because of its ridiculousness. You - and others on here - somehow equate my 100% approval of the end of this psychopath's life as support for US intervention and foreign policy, which I, in fact, have a big problem with. But even the mindfuck of all of that doesn't change what this man did and what he stood for. The world has been rid of one of its most sinister human beings.
I can go in and confess to Kristen French's murder but that doesn't make it true. It makes me someone who is looking for attention. Osama Bin Laden NEEDED to be tried for his crimes. If you're supposedly shining the light of democracy, you've just clearly taken a step backwards.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:43 PM   #134 (permalink)
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being the 'other on here' in question, i feel compelled to respond. i am suggesting that being ok with an assasination means you should preobably be ok if one goes the other way. could you tell me how this is wrong?

how can you have a big problem with us intervention into other sovereign nations, but be totally ok with this assasination on foreign soil? is it just because he was a bad guy? what am i missing here?

i'm not unhappy that he's dead, i'm asking questions about what kind of presedent this sets. that's relevant because we may soon be dealing with the backlash. maybe we won't, and the us is that powerful and al queda is now that weak. but if that's what i'm putting my hopes in, it terrifies me.

for me, the issue is not whether or not he deserved to die, but what the idea of state sanctioned assasinations does to international stability.
I'd be curious to hear what you think should have happened and how it should have gone down. Don't forget we're dealing with Pakistan here where, by all accounts and for some strange reason, al-Qaeda is allowed to exist - their leader holed up in a mansion next to retired military personnel.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:44 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Keep laughing funny guy, because you can. You get to read comics and make jokes. Why didn't you enlist to fight when you saw it happen? I'm guessing the reason is that you haven't been pushed to the brink yet. Nothing has intruded on our cozy existence enough. I'm not into conspiracies, I don't just take one side at face value. We need to ask questions. What would possibly drive these people with limited means to want to battle Goliath? It's easy to say it's their fault while you read your Batman comic and make jokes. Do the hard thing and ask questions.
How do you know the USA killed Bin Laden?

Answer it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:44 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Did the group of men go on video, say they were going to do it? Did they cheer it afterwards, did they say they would do it again?

Did they walk into the town with the intention of mass murder?

Your information is incomplete
Did they cheer afterwards: Yes. Did they say they would do it again: yes. Did they walk into town with the intention: Yes.

Anything more?
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:45 PM   #137 (permalink)
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How do you know the USA killed Bin Laden?

Answer it.
The evidence provided has suggested it. C'mon man....
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:47 PM   #138 (permalink)
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How do you know the USA killed Bin Laden?

Answer it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:48 PM   #139 (permalink)
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How do you know the USA killed Bin Laden?

Answer it.
I don't. It wasn't proven to me, beyond all doubt.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:48 PM   #140 (permalink)
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I can go in and confess to Kristen French's murder but that doesn't make it true. It makes me someone who is looking for attention. Osama Bin Laden NEEDED to be tried for his crimes. If you're supposedly shining the light of democracy, you've just clearly taken a step backwards.
You sir, are ass backwards. Sure, you could make that video. Would you also put a call out for your followers to rape and kill 14 year old girls wherever they found them? And what if they did? I believe that'd make you guilty of something horrendous.
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