Bill Maher on Conan (aug 24th) - Page 2
Old 08-26-2009, 10:16 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Benzo, then yup, you're going to have to explain it to me because I honestly don't see it.
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:27 AM   #22 (permalink)
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i don't mean to sound accusatory or pushy windex, but i must ask - how can you be a fan of stewart or maher and also be a fan of bill o'reilly and glenn beck? how is that reconcileable?
O'reilley/Beck/Rush are all unbelievably unwatcheable douchebags. Talk about guys who like the sound of their own voices.
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:30 AM   #23 (permalink)
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O'reilley/Beck/Rush are all unbelievably unwatcheable douchebags. Talk about guys who like the sound of their own voices.
Looks to me that your politics are shining through there Jeff. Way to be impartial.

I hate Stewarts politics but I find him funny, I like what Rush's message is but I find him a blowhard.
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
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i don't mean to sound accusatory or pushy windex, but i must ask - how can you be a fan of stewart or maher and also be a fan of bill o'reilly and glenn beck? how is that reconcileable?
It's called being open minded
I'm an Independent
and I'm not really a fan of Beck. Just like Maher I agree with some of his points but sometimes he has to shut up
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:35 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Looks to me that your politics are shining through there Jeff. Way to be impartial.

I hate Stewarts politics but I find him funny, I like what Rush's message is but I find him a blowhard.
Impartial? Sorry but guys like Rush saying he hopes his president fails are losers. And i put all three of those far right wing nuts in the same ugly boat.
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:43 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Benzo, then yup, you're going to have to explain it to me because I honestly don't see it.
I don't think its a big deal, and I'm speaking about "culture" not in a mind set but as an art and entertainment as a reflection of culture.

Never in history has more buying decisions been made by women, I don't know if you have been listening to any talk radio lately but in 9 of 10 commericals where there is a couple and one of those people play the "fool" it is the man. 20 years ago no way.

Where the charts were once topped with all male acts really, now Lady Gaga, Katey Perry etc dominate.

Look at our biggest TV shows and movies over the last couple years. Twilight, American Idol, Survivor, Ugly Betty, Oprah etc...all geared towards women. Not to mention the innondation of channels like Slice, Food, TLC, W. It used to be all shows had a male lead, but now since Buffy (shameless plug) there are hundreds.

The advent of Chic Lit, walk into Chapters there is almost an entire floor dedicated to it.

Where the theatre used to be packed with stories of death and intrigue of Shakespear and Faust. Now Mamma Mia, jersey Boys and Dirty Dancing

Again I don't know if its a bad thing at all....but the recent (in the grand scheme of things) empowerment of women, has defiantly had an effect on our "culture"
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:44 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Impartial? Sorry but guys like Rush saying he hopes his president fails are losers. And i put all three of those far right wing nuts in the same ugly boat.
Thats fine, all I was saying is you let your politics decide what you find entertaining, which I don't think is a bad thing. I choose to separate the 2.
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:07 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I don't think its a big deal, and I'm speaking about "culture" not in a mind set but as an art and entertainment as a reflection of culture.

Never in history has more buying decisions been made by women, I don't know if you have been listening to any talk radio lately but in 9 of 10 commericals where there is a couple and one of those people play the "fool" it is the man. 20 years ago no way.

Where the charts were once topped with all male acts really, now Lady Gaga, Katey Perry etc dominate.

Look at our biggest TV shows and movies over the last couple years. Twilight, American Idol, Survivor, Ugly Betty, Oprah etc...all geared towards women. Not to mention the innondation of channels like Slice, Food, TLC, W. It used to be all shows had a male lead, but now since Buffy (shameless plug) there are hundreds.

The advent of Chic Lit, walk into Chapters there is almost an entire floor dedicated to it.

Where the theatre used to be packed with stories of death and intrigue of Shakespear and Faust. Now Mamma Mia, jersey Boys and Dirty Dancing

Again I don't know if its a bad thing at all....but the recent (in the grand scheme of things) empowerment of women, has defiantly had an effect on our "culture"
while most of this is undoubtedly true, i would argue that this is not a feminization of our culture, but rather a broadening of it. it is simply an expansion such that these things have found a place in our collective consciousness and our media because of the proliferation of those sources of entertainment. and in the end, these are all just aspects of entertainment.

if you take a look at our culture as a whole, you will still see the traditional 'masculine' elements represented at the core of the way our society works. independence, strength, toughness, individualism vs collectivity, assertiveness, rationality, competition, aggressiveness, ambition, etc. many women posses these qualities as well, especially in the work place, but a great deal of feminists would argue that this is women adopting a traditionally male persona in order to try to get past the glass ceiling in an all-boys club. the fact is that the root of our culture is still primarily driven by values and qualities that have always been associated with masculinity.

in the end, the opening up of a niche in media for culture that is feminine is simply a by-product of capitalism's quest for more markets. women have more money to spend, so consumable culture develops to fill that void and profit from it. this isn't good or bad. it just is.

and on the whole, those traditionally masculine cultural elements are all still there. pro sports, guns, gadgets, physical objectification (this is a fun one because it is a traditionally male trait that is now done equally be women as well), cars, etc - all of these things have tv shows, movies, magazines, books, spokespeople, etc all dedicated to them in an ever increasing concentration. and few, possibly none, of these things have been feminized in any real way.

and for every w netwrok, we have spike tv. for every 'party dish' on the food network, we also have hell's kitchen.

so, to reiterate, i see a feminine niche, and undoubtedly a large one, but i don't see a reduction in masculine media culture, and i definitely don't see a feminization of the underlying cultural values upon which our society functions.
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:29 AM   #29 (permalink)
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'trane....true

but I think media is a direct reflection on our cultural values, and the are changing.

A single mother not too long ago was looked upon as a drag on economy and society. Now it is more common place and women are being empowered all over the place. We have become a more feminine culture not just a niche. From the way men dress to the way men no longer treat women in an "old culture" way. I am married to a European woman, the youngest of 5 girls. I can tell you the difference is night and day between her parents and even her older sisters marriages in both opportunity and status.

I did the dishes one of my first times comming over over for dinner and I thought they were going to riot.....questioned my manhood...said I was doing a womens job. You get my point.
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:33 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I did the dishes one of my first times comming over over for dinner and I thought they were going to riot.....questioned my manhood...said I was doing a womens job. You get my point.
Woman's job? Yeah i get your point, they're set in ways and sound sexist.
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:46 AM   #31 (permalink)
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'trane....true

but I think media is a direct reflection on our cultural values, and the are changing.

A single mother not too long ago was looked upon as a drag on economy and society. Now it is more common place and women are being empowered all over the place. We have become a more feminine culture not just a niche. From the way men dress to the way men no longer treat women in an "old culture" way. I am married to a European woman, the youngest of 5 girls. I can tell you the difference is night and day between her parents and even her older sisters marriages in both opportunity and status.

I did the dishes one of my first times comming over over for dinner and I thought they were going to riot.....questioned my manhood...said I was doing a womens job. You get my point.
point well taken. on a significant level the roles of men and women are changing. i would say that this is not simply a feminization of culture, though, but more interestingly a redistribution of work now that both genders are largely employed. there is undoubtedly an associated value shift that goes with that, but i still don't see it as feminization per se.

i would argue theat a de-macho-ization is not the same as a feminization. just because we have reduced 'old-school' mentalities (meat-headedness, as i would call it) does not mean we've really feminizaed. we've just become more open to possibilities.

Last edited by 'trane; 08-26-2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:54 AM   #32 (permalink)
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i would argue theat a de-macho-ization is not the same as a faminization. just because we have reduced 'old-school' mentalities (meat-headedness, as i would call it) .
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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point well taken. on a significant level the roles of men and women are changing. i would say that this is not simply a feminization of culture, though, but more interestingly a redistribution of work now that both genders are largely employed. there is undoubtedly an associated value shift that goes with that, but i still don't see it as feminization per se.

i would argue theat a de-macho-ization is not the same as a feminization. just because we have reduced 'old-school' mentalities (meat-headedness, as i would call it) does not mean we've really feminizaed. we've just become more open to possibilities.
Its my contention that the redistribution of work has caused a feminization of culture, not a complete shift, but definatley a feminization.
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Old 08-26-2009, 05:09 PM   #34 (permalink)
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For the longest time masculinity was generally defined as not being feminine, and feminine characteristics were seen as very bad things as displayed by a poster early on in this thread. If there is a shift in that thinking, then I'm not sure it means the culture is moving towards "feminization" as much as it is redefining gender roles and looking beyond stereotypes.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
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As for the whole feminization of culture issue, I mean, I don't think this a new thing. I think womens values (materialism, comforting lies, life long commitment to a partner, sensuality, children, safety, marriage, obsession with sex) are what hold men back in general, and this has almost always been the case.

And just look at sitcoms.....As Maher said in a routine, "the female is always wise and right about everything, and the male is always some dumb fuck lucky to have found her"

And the way boys a treated in schools.....the curriculum is increasingly tailored to appeal to the female way of learning (passive rote learning),while it's almost like a disease just to be a boy, because the curriculum and teachers aren't trained to deal with and accept and work with the high spiritedness and energy of boys. So you have all this over prescription meds to deal with the supposed "ADHD of boys", while the girls get praised for basically being obedient rote learners.

And don't get me started on the obsession with gaining distinction in society through shiny objects, houses, gardens, cars, clothes, fashion.

You think these are male values? Breaking the economy wasn't men being men. It was men desperately trying to please women, and this has been going on forever.

Last edited by Cory; 08-27-2009 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:38 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:40 PM   #37 (permalink)
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men are held back in general? you have to be joking cory.

and the economy went down because we were trying to please women? i assume that you must be trying to say that the mortage crisis was caused by trying to buy bigger houses for women who are putting pressure on men... i don't even know what to say. that seems so incredibly far from the truth... men haven't had a penchant for expensive houses in the past? you might want to read up on louis xiv...
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:50 PM   #38 (permalink)
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and the economy went down because we were trying to please women? I assume that you must be trying to say that the mortage crisis was caused by trying to buy bigger houses for women who are putting pressure on men...
Sure, part of it is that women put pressure on men, and a more significant factor is the feminine within a man - - the need to be adored and envied by others, the fixation with oneself in the mirror...

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men haven't had a penchant for expensive houses in the past? you might want to read up on louis xiv...
Again, the need to be adored and envied by others, the fixation with oneself in the mirror...this is the feminine. Plus, power brings sex (women). Big luxury equals attention by females. This is how it has always been.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:53 PM   #39 (permalink)
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i can think of nothing more masculine than a man wanting to be adored by a woman...
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Old 08-27-2009, 05:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Sure, that's masculine......but is it as masculine as a man who gets extra-objective and rational about the nature of his own desires?

Think of what happens when men, who want to be adored by women, do everything they can to please women... you end up with a culture dominated by female values (e.g., men being dominated by the allure of female beauty and female approval).

You have a culture of men worshiping females and female values.
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