Bag Ban in Hogtown - Page 3
Old 06-08-2012, 07:06 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Not about you, no.

And that's not my point. Look, I think bottled water is asinine and needless. I don't purchase it or consume it. I don't understand why people feel the need to travel with water and constantly be consuming it like they're in the desert or something. I think it's terribly wasteful from a manufacture and transport point of view. Now, I'd never try to push for a ban on its use, but that's what's happening here. "I don't use them, I don't see the point, so no one should be able to use them." Meanwhile, they're doing/consuming a bunch of things which are far more unsound than plastic bags. I'm convinced that it's small changes in behaviour, slowly over time, which are going to change the wastefulness of our society. The problem is manufacture, transport and over-consumption. Not landfills, not plastic bags.
I think the point lies in the absolute necessity of social policy to tackle obvious problems. Small changes in the behavior of consumers will not accomplish what needs to be accomplished, and there is not a lot of time. With bottled water you see not just the wastefulness of a consumer society, but a wrecklessness on the part of our corporate overlords. Never mind that nobody should be allowed to use bottled water, it shouldn't be allowed to be made into a product. Corporations must be made responsible and accountable. It's going to require us to fully empower ourselves again, and just being consumers, good or bad, is not going to help.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:22 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I think the point lies in the absolute necessity of social policy to tackle obvious problems. Small changes in the behavior of consumers will not accomplish what needs to be accomplished, and there is not a lot of time. With bottled water you see not just the wastefulness of a consumer society, but a wrecklessness on the part of our corporate overlords. Never mind that nobody should be allowed to use bottled water, it shouldn't be allowed to be made into a product. Corporations must be made responsible and accountable. It's going to require us to fully empower ourselves again, and just being consumers, good or bad, is not going to help.
The outright ban though - without a study, consultations with the various industries involved or the consumers - is misguided and doesn't tackle the issue at all. It just moves the "problem" (blown out of proportion) around. Like I said before, paper is marginally better (I think the only benefit is that it doesn't blow around). And the reuses of these bags - garbage/organic/cat litter/dog crap/general use - will just be shifted to other plastic products. So if the intent is to cut down, good luck with that. If you were to ban plastic water bottles, I could see that putting a considerable dent in the usage because of the lack of alternatives and the limits of its reuse.

The way Adam Vaughan's been blabbering on since this went down, one can sense that this is, at least partially, a big fuck you to Rob Ford. That's not how you run a city.

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Old 06-08-2012, 10:36 AM   #43 (permalink)
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The way Adam Vaughan's been blabbering on since this went down, one can sense that this is, at least partially, a big fuck you to Rob Ford. That's not how you run a city.
actually, in a sense, it is. ford came to office on blather and false promises, and made his mark by bullying the staff and other councillors, and by being divisive and confrontational rather than collaborative and non-partisan. it should come as no surprise, then, that the city has rejected that approach and is now making it difficult for him to get what he wants.

in politics, especially in civic politics, and extra-especially in toronto, you don't get anywhere without making freinds and cultivating relationships. ford, in his entire career at the city, has done none of that, and now it is biting him in the ass. the city is being run this way because that is the tone set by the mayor. everything has been a fight, and ford wanted it that way.

there is an important environmental statement being made in this - towards which you and i have different opinions, as we have with earth day and other statements - but the element of politics is deeply embedded as well, and not to blame on the city councillors, especially when the motion came from a ford ally.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:42 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I'm so confused by some of the arguments against the ban here. I understand questions about liberty and freedom, and I admit that I personally have not been able to find where the balance is between freedom and protection.

However, two particular strains of argument just seem obviously ridiculous to me:

1) There are bigger fish to fry - Ok, so what? Does that make the principle in this instance wrong? If you have an opportunity to make an improvement, no matter how small it is, why do you turn that down?

2) It is an inconvenience - How narrow are your values? Isn't is possible that some things that are "right" in life are, in fact, extremely inconvenient? And is this even that inconvenient, or are you just myopic?

I keep all of our old plastic bags for as long as we can use them, but I have no desire at all to ever pick up one more, and I don't understand why you would. I'm willing to listen to pragmatic arguments about the utility of a ban vs, say, economic disincentives, but the very notion that the principle at work here is a bad idea just seems like folly to me.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #45 (permalink)
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The big fuck you came from Rob Ford. From day one and right up until now. He wanted to remove the 5 cent fee as a means of political grandstanding. That's no way to run the city. He's already done enough damage over the course of one year that he has lost nearly all of his support. The motion for the ban came from a guy in his own executive council, not Adam Vaughn. The left was working on a rather lame bit of grandstanding of their own in trying to tie the fee to saving the tree canopy. What happened was the most sensible approach, and in the end the way the city is being run is quite wonderful - it's become very easy to see through all political machinations, citizens have become more involved, and the true interests of the people are being served. I think if we had seen Smitherman get in, the results might have been less pretty with no sense of direction and stagnation. You have to give Ford credit for one thing with his continual eff you approach - it's so utterly transparent, and transparency is a valuable requirement to good governance, even if it occurs through oafish, ham-handed leadership that must always be rejected.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:37 AM   #46 (permalink)
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3 pages of Plastic Bag talk. Please just go Commie on our asses and get rid of them it just should not be an issue anymore. (I'd like to hear a "is this wear they start tearing away our freedom" speech about now)

How about the Federal Gov't putting one up the cities ass in changing the weight of the Looney. Millions of dollars will have to be spent replacement all cities parking ticket machines.

Brilliant
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I'm so confused by some of the arguments against the ban here. I understand questions about liberty and freedom, and I admit that I personally have not been able to find where the balance is between freedom and protection.

However, two particular strains of argument just seem obviously ridiculous to me:

1) There are bigger fish to fry - Ok, so what? Does that make the principle in this instance wrong? If you have an opportunity to make an improvement, no matter how small it is, why do you turn that down?

2) It is an inconvenience - How narrow are your values? Isn't is possible that some things that are "right" in life are, in fact, extremely inconvenient? And is this even that inconvenient, or are you just myopic?

I keep all of our old plastic bags for as long as we can use them, but I have no desire at all to ever pick up one more, and I don't understand why you would. I'm willing to listen to pragmatic arguments about the utility of a ban vs, say, economic disincentives, but the very notion that the principle at work here is a bad idea just seems like folly to me.
If you're referring to me, you're missing my point, and please lose the 'tude. We all know you're a big thinker with your library and such.

The ban is pointless because the alternatives aren't any better. Take the ban on synthetic lawn pesticides as an example. While I think it's unfortunate that my city looks like crap choked with weeds, the ban makes total sense, and I feel good knowing my son's not tramping through a sea of carcinogens. Now, if the industry found an alternative that caused just as much harm to the environment and health, what would be the point? Optics? Are we working towards something here? Or is this another feel-good exercise?
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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yeah ligeia. screw yer library learnin'! we don't need that kinda thinkin' 'round here... "willing to listen to pragmatic arguments"... what kinda attitude you throwin' 'round?
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:33 AM   #49 (permalink)
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yeah ligeia. screw yer library learnin'! we don't need that kinda thinkin' 'round here... "willing to listen to pragmatic arguments"... what kinda attitude you throwin' 'round?
Learnin' and thinkin' are both fine - it's the holier-than-thou attitude I cannot stand. Right up your alley though! Peas in a pod, birds of a feather.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:27 AM   #50 (permalink)
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This is a thread in 2012 right?
Geez.
Plastic bags haven't been used where I live for years now (which is right outside Toronto).
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:09 AM   #51 (permalink)
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This is a thread in 2012 right?
Geez.
Plastic bags haven't been used where I live for years now (which is right outside Toronto).
Haven't been used for years? So nobody is able to buy a plastic bag at all anywhere if they want? I find that difficult to believe.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:00 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Learnin' and thinkin' are both fine - it's the holier-than-thou attitude I cannot stand. Right up your alley though! Peas in a pod, birds of a feather.
you make a claim that someone else's attitude is 'something you cannot stand', yet we are the one's who are holier-than-thou?

look mam, if you are going to put up political arguments, you should probably be prepared that dudes will disagree and will make counter-points, probably asking you to defend yours. and where there is politics, there is, most of often, a sense of outrage or a sense of righteousness. we can both take ownership of that, move past it, and have a discussion. or we can hide behind it and grind the discussion into the ground, getting caught up in who makes the point rather than in the point itself.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:45 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I don't understand our addiction to plastic bags. They didn't exist for many, many, many years and society was fine. People were still able to shop.

I always keep cloth bags in my car for instance. I live relatively close to a grocery store (about 2 km) and if I think I need something on that day, I'll go home first, pick up my cloth bags and walk to the store. It's what my parents did and it's what I do. I just don't get the whole hulabaloo.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:00 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Are plastic produce bags any better than the plastic bags at check out?
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:06 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Are plastic produce bags any better than the plastic bags at check out?
Don't know, but I don't really use them. I go to the market for my produce for the most part where I just put it in my bags. Or if I do buy it at the supermarket I just put in my bin and put it on the belt.

Everything else, I grow from the garden too.
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:16 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Plastic bags are a huge convenience that I am willing to learn to live without.

I use them for the kitchen garbage, kitty litter scooping and dog poops.

There are alternatives that I will get use to over time.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:05 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Haven't been used for years? So nobody is able to buy a plastic bag at all anywhere if they want? I find that difficult to believe.
Quote:
If Miltonís Real Canadian Superstore is the future, its bin-bearing shoppers have a message for Torontonians.

Itís really not so bad without the bag.

The Loblaw store opened in August 2007, and its checkouts have been free of plastic bags ever since. This is the fate of every Toronto grocery store, after city council voted to scrap plastic bags entirely as of Jan. 1.
*yawn*
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