another discussion about religion - Page 4
Old 12-09-2010, 10:21 PM   #61 (permalink)
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well, i don't think a christian god exists, so that's impossible for me to answer.

my point is that if the bible is the unassailable word of god how can one possibly choose which parts to agree with and which not to? and if it is not the unassailable word of god, why should anyone believe any of it?
The Bible was written many years ago. But so were some current laws. Do you agree with all the laws out there?

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@DK, 2 years ago i would have totally sided with you and would have made a solid effort to debate with the rest of this forum with you. But today i think your on your own, sorry man
No problem man.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:25 PM   #62 (permalink)
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The Bible was written many years ago. But so were some current laws. Do you agree with all the laws out there?
not sure what you mean by this. canadian and international laws were made by humans and are open to be changed by humans based on democratic principles.

is the bible open to change based on any kind of principle?
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:29 PM   #63 (permalink)
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is the bible open to change based on any kind of principle?
I thought thats why they have 100's of denominations and churches
they all interpret certain ideas differently
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:31 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I thought thats why they have 100's of denominations and churches
they all interpret certain ideas differently
change and interpretation are not the same thing. i am asking if the bible is open to be changed. can we strike out sections that no longer apply? if so, what value does insisting that it is the word of god have?
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:37 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Does God care if I eat shell fish? These are the questions that plague my mind.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:46 PM   #66 (permalink)
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change and interpretation are not the same thing. i am asking if the bible is open to be changed. can we strike out sections that no longer apply? if so, what value does insisting that it is the word of god have?
Lol you are really testing my debating skills tonight aren't you?

No the Bible is not open to be changed. But that doesn't mean that we have to follow everything that the Bible says word for word. Like Gurk said, there is a part in the Bible that is against same sex. But if we were to verbally abuse and/or physically abuse them because the Bible said God is "against it" (against it, not hates each one of them) until they disappeared from the face of the earth, we all be sinners.

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Does God care if I eat shell fish? These are the questions that plague my mind.
No fish for you!

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Old 12-09-2010, 10:48 PM   #67 (permalink)
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There really is more to religious thought and practice than adherence to silly rules and insisting that the Bible is irrefutably the word of God. It can actually be a wonderful human pursuit that achieves some very admiral ends.

I honestly get nothing out of the debates. Neither side in these things comes off very well in my mind. If your a believer that needs to debate the inherent legitimacy of believing, or an atheist that needs to convince the believers that they are inherently wrong, the point to our existence and how we choose to express that as individuals and communities never gets addressed properly. So for me, what the ultra-important stuff both sides thinks they are debating, actually gets left out by the very act of the debate itself.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:19 PM   #68 (permalink)
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It can actually be a wonderful human pursuit that achieves some very admiral ends.
none of which can't also be obtained by non-theistic beliefs or spirituality. this is by no means something that is the sole property of religion.

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the point to our existence and how we choose to express that as individuals and communities never gets addressed properly
i agree in a sense, but that's a fairly sizeable understatement of the topic, is it not? our expression as individuals and communities is not adequately addressed, yes, but this topic is central to the way that this is actualized. i have no problem with personal spirituality. but the question of organized religions and their impact on human pursuits is of significant importance. interpretation of religious text and it's application - these are community-defining questions. especially when there is power involved.

not necessarily in a discussion of nene, but that's why i moved this to the podium.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:21 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I honestly get nothing out of the debates. Neither side in these things comes off very well in my mind. If your a believer that needs to debate the inherent legitimacy of believing, or an atheist that needs to convince the believers that they are inherently wrong, the point to our existence and how we choose to express that as individuals and communities never gets addressed properly. So for me, what the ultra-important stuff both sides thinks they are debating, actually gets left out by the very act of the debate itself.
Are you suggesting that people are trying to hard to win a debate about certain points without listening carefully to the other sides views on bigger questions? I'm not sure if I'm correctly interpreting what you're saying.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:21 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I dismiss any religion that contradicts mine. What's my creed you ask? Well, I believe Raptor Jesus was the son of Stanley Kubrick.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:27 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Here's the real jesus...

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Old 12-10-2010, 12:38 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Well now I'm curious, why do you think believing in God is a "plague upon human development"?

Religion is conflict.

This idea of religion was derived from the supposed existence of a God.

Once you get to university take a few social science courses, namely, astronomy.
Just know the facts before you jump into believing in something that your family and/or parents tell you to believe in.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:48 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:56 AM   #74 (permalink)
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[quote=Dark Knight;475864]The Bible was written many years ago. But so were some current laws. Do you agree with all the laws out there?



Laws are constantly being modified to better suite the status quo. For instance, same-sex marriages were forbidden and against Canadian law in the past. But, in the 21st century it was OFFICIALY legalized.


so laws do change and in a democratic fashion that strives toward assuring equal rights in Canada.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:20 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Are you suggesting that people are trying to hard to win a debate about certain points without listening carefully to the other sides views on bigger questions? I'm not sure if I'm correctly interpreting what you're saying.
What I get out of the debates of the day, is that one side is vigorously defending a set of beliefs as essentially good, and the other is attempting to portray all the evil that comes out of it. But just as trane points out that the good aspects of religion are not the sole property of religion, neither does evil lie solely within that terrain. Good and evil exist with or without religious texts or beliefs. And I believe questions of faith do as well. Theists and atheists can share the common pursuit of tackling such commonalities. But instead there is an intense desire on each side to refute and negate the other side entirely.

I have a big problem with religious leaders exercising power more than providing guidance, and when political power gets thrown into the balance I'm really not a fan. I would really like to see discussions among theists and atheists alike, on how religion gets subverted and distorted and misused, rather than one side just professing such things as givens with the very existence of any kind of creation myth. And I'd like to see discussions on how neither side can hold onto to any kind of certainty, instead of seeing theists hold onto notions that their beliefs provide them with answers that they know to be true, when in fact the traditions behind their beliefs are all about helping guide people through what cannot be known with any kind of absolute certainty. The two sides pare everything down to the point where the discussion just has no opportunity to actually be interesting, or provide the kind of thought that could lead to valuable understanding.

I participated in a procession in Kandy, Sri Lanka, where I was among a throng that made it's way towards a small room where the tooth of the Lord Buddha is kept inside a small casket. It seems quite absurd to go through ceremonies when the payoff is a small box that is supposed to have an important relic inside. But there is another payoff - there is a good deal of beauty that emanates outward from this casket, to the small room on the second level of a two-story shrine, and out to the grounds that surround the shrine. If there could be more absurd reveling in this world, we might actually be better off.

But in the western world there is really just dead religions, and it is the staleness that drives everything. People will suggest that they might fight to the death so that a replica of the ten commandments can be placed outside a courthouse, and at the same time they are unable to provide a correct recitation of even half of the ten, let alone explain how they answer to the principles behind each in their lives. There are just too many empty rituals, and I feel they are made so due to sheer laziness when it comes to facing what might appear absurd, and certainly feels unknowable. And in the end nothing emanates from any of it, no real connections are made to the essence of the human condition, and the expression of values too often becomes the means of expressing hatred. To me that is what needs to be attacked more than the idea of inherent evil that comes into play, because atheists can be caught up in evil just as easily - we need only look at the recent histories of nations that dismantled all organized religion, or those that made their political leaders into god-like figures outside of any existing religious institutions.

If I could see one of these debates begin with the premise that both good and evil lie within the hearts of all participants in the discussion, I might get the sense that something could come out of the exercise. But usually the opening premise steers towards claiming to possess the good while combatting the evil in the other. It just seems to be a further extension of the empty tribalism that inflicts the real problems in the first place, and I come away unhappy with both sides.

Last edited by LX; 12-10-2010 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:44 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Sorry - I have to blather on yet. This idea of fairy tales bugs me quite a bit. Is it really a problem that people find some means of strength in fairy tales? I became quite engrossed in a tv serial version of the Hindu Mahabharata. It is quite clearly tinged with all sorts of fantastical happenings. But truth does come out of the attempt to reach out to the mysterious aspects of our existence. Here's my problem - why can't that attempt be a continuous, living exercise that evolves as personal and communal lives intersect and evolve? Why must we come up with the notion that a text says something explicitly that must be followed, when all the texts I have seen seem to be created out of a struggle that is never entirely put to rest? The bible doesn't say shit about homosexuality explicitly, and what it hints at is not where the value of the text lies, and to claim as much is what makes the religion stale, the God dead, and the practitioners a danger to themselves. That serialized version of the Mahabharata was seen as advocating a militaristic Hindu nationalism, and when I could see that in spots, I found it extremely sad. What makes the original, brilliant spark that lies behind these creation myths die out in such an ugly fashion? That is where my concern lies - not in ridiculing anyone for clinging to fairy tales.

In my perfect world we all have a god that tells us that while he has created us, we have in turn created him. I personally really need that original spark to continue to live and breath, even though it may become problematic.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:22 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Now THERE'S a post I can reply to. Good one, Acie.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:45 AM   #79 (permalink)
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:facepalm:
Wow, so people are just dumb. Sorry...

Religions :facepalm: It's nr. 1 on my hate list. after racism, criminality and stupidity (kinda same thing ah?).
What ever, It's should be about Alabi, not about the priests...

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Old 12-10-2010, 09:06 AM   #80 (permalink)
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