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Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards - American healthcare system
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-   -   American healthcare system (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f23/american-healthcare-system-9257.html)

jeffb 07-21-2009 11:04 PM

American healthcare system
 
Sen. Sanders puts this Fox news broadcaster in his place about Canadian healthcare as opposed to the American so called health care. Americans are so quick to want to hold on to the Insurance companies running their healthcare, it's really mind blowing to me. Insurance company sole reason for being in healthcare is to reject as many claims as possible. U.S are so stuck in the past...like Bill Maher said last week, "since the walk on the Moon, what has America really acomplished of any real significance?" "The health care system has not really been touched for 50 yrs and is beyond broken"... Our system is far from perfect, but Americans saying they wouldn't want a Healthcare like ours shows how set in their ways they are and uneducated they are about other countries. The worst part is they have so many issues and all they can do is point out faulst with other countries with uneducated half truths, instead of dealing with their own problems.


Febreezy 07-21-2009 11:35 PM

This guy is an idiot.
Fox is a b.s station. Free parking???? :dead:

Mr4thQuarter 07-22-2009 06:06 AM

http://melaniekillingervowell.files....ng?w=299&h=253

I love Bill Maher and Senator Sanders. I know the senator mainly from Real Time too btw.

gdaytday 07-22-2009 07:01 AM

I saw an ad on American TV last night that talked about how terrible our health care system is. Has anyone else seen this?

jeffb 07-22-2009 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdaytday (Post 215549)
I saw an ad on American TV last night that talked about how terrible our health care system is. Has anyone else seen this?

Yeah, it's rediculous. I was watching Larry King last night and some woman was on there and she said, "do you want a system like in Britain & Canada where they can't even choose their own doctor"???? I wanted to call in and set her ugly ass straight.Ignorant assholes. Their healthcare system has been shit for decades now and they are too caught up in political bullshit posturing to get anything done. They need to STFU about everyone else and fix their own problems.

They rank 38th in the world in healthcare.

Claudius 07-22-2009 08:41 AM

I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a bit.

Canada's health care system is nothing to really be proud of, beyond the fact that it's universal.

Our health care system more or less is being run privately under the ideology of being public. For e.g. the cries of more doctors being needed in rural or even urban areas. The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income. Our doctor's really run our system more than we acknowledge.

Secondly, the wait times here are completely two tiered. Athletes, for example CFL players, will typically get smaller wait times. The question has to be asked, why?

I'm just brining up these points, because it's easy to say: "ignorant Americans" etc. However, before we go criticizing other heathcare systems, perhaps we should firstly criticize ours. We largely take it for granted and it's sad as it's a public function which we pay for yet always trumpet as being great despite it's massive shortcomings.

If there were any system to be emulated, I'd likely wish to emulate that of France/Sweden.

Windex 07-22-2009 08:54 AM

the new health system will be worse then Canada's
they're going to kill many insurers by offering lower cost, b/c they're not motivated by profit
secondly, the U.S. has massive debt and can only fund it by raising taxes on everyone
you can keep your healthcare and but you pay for the national healthcare as well, thats great
as much as you complain about the Canadian government it is worse in the U.S.

U.S. has national heath care for war vets which is worse than average Americans use
and they're trillions of dollars in the red by funding medicare and other government funded projects

Claudius 07-22-2009 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex (Post 215568)
the new health system will be worse then Canada's
they're going to kill many insurers by offering lower cost, b/c they're not motivated by profit
secondly, the U.S. has massive debt and can only fund it by raising taxes on everyone
you can keep your healthcare and but you pay for the national healthcare as well, thats great
as much as you complain about the Canadian government it is worse in the U.S.

U.S. has national heath care for war vets which is worse than average Americans use
and they're trillions of dollars in the red by funding medicare and other government funded projects

A. Who cares about the insurance companies, as companies such as AIG are poorly run and contributed to the economic crisis. Also, raising premiums for no apparent reason beyond greed also makes me care little for these companies.

B. Spending for the benefit of the public is not a bad thing if done correctly. Americans are so afraid of taxes yet are willing to enter massive debt for other reasons (see: Iraq war, War on Terrorism, Bailouts etc.; all had high approval ratings)

C. The beautiful thing about the Canadian system is when you actually need care it's non-discriminatory. The fact that 36-38 million Americans don't have access to medical attention is sad and really the entire initiative is looking after the bottom percentile of American population.

D. And the medicare coverage for War Vets is piss poor which is sad seeing how calls to reform it had largely gone unanswered during the previous administration.

Windex 07-22-2009 09:15 AM

I just talk about the insurance companies b/c right now it seems like you would want less unemployment
hundreds of thousands of people are employed by the healthcare/insurance sector, people from secretaries to doctors and many will lose their jobs when they disappear
for a government that is heavily in debt it seems odd that they would want to occur costs worth trillions while losing tax revenue from bankrupt insurance companies
who's going to fill the financial void?

LX 07-22-2009 11:08 PM

If they all got sick it would be a boon to the economy. There's the problem right there. They can't get their minds off of growth when all true economies must work within limits and balance. With health care they want it all even if it costs a ridiculous amount through waste and doesn't make them any healthier. And yes the economy of insurers and pharma goes through the roof. It's a sick society.

Spoof'22 07-23-2009 07:34 PM

Claudius i know that Canadas health care system isnt THE BEST in the world but going as far as to say that its nothing to be proud of is a little too much. The health care system is great here, it is not the system in the world but defenitely something to be proud of. It doesnt discriminate, atleast not in a way that is harmful to anyone.

"The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income." - This is a problem that is not exclusive to Canada and it is not something that really harms anyone either. It keeps the competetion high which means only the best doctors will get to operate.

eoraptor77 07-24-2009 01:24 PM

Just thought i would chip in my 2 cents in response to the ad campaign currently circulating in the US about the Canadian healthcare system, which to a certain extent i do agree with, in that the healthcare system in this country is not something to be particularly proud of, but it is far better than what a large percentage of the American population has access to.

There are so many problems with the healthcare system in this country, its kind of like communism, in theory its all good but in practise its a whole other kettle of fish. There are so many abuses of the system here and such ridiculous waste that it really boggles the mind.

For example last night i was going to the 7/11 and when i get there, outside was 2 ambulances, a fire truck, a police cruiser and police bike, so you think something bigs going down, but no.. some bum stole some mouthwash and a bag of sugar, swallowed the lot an started vommiting an convulsing, an there you go a bill of how many thousands for this one idiot who contributes jack all in taxes but will benefit from the healthcare system that you and I pay for. To be honest do you think this kind of idiocy happens in the States, where there would be no help for this ass..NO.

The head doctor of the Fraser healthboard (Vancouver area) last year recieved a salary in excess of 600,000$, this year he will make more, and his pension, well i can only imagine, probably 80% of his yearly salary, so even in retirement this guys going to be taking close to half a mill.

3 Weeks ago i broke a couple of fingers while DH at Whistler, i had to wait 4 hours to see a doctor, another 2 for X-rays and then another 2 to see the doc again. I was so close to just driving home, which i probably should have since all he did was reposition a dislocated pinky and give me a couple of splints to wear.

I have also been on a waiting list now for close to 2 an half years to get a family doc. This is just a snipet of what i have experienced an know of in my immediate situation, can you imagine how much waste there is country wide in Canada? Further can you imagine what the level of corruption an waste there would be in a system 10 times what we have here?

OK rant over, i still do appreciate what we have here even with its many flaws

Ligeia 07-24-2009 05:24 PM

The fundamental problem in the US is not the profitability of the insurance companies, but the cost of care. Re-distributing that burden amongst the tax payers does nothing to solve the problem, but does add a host of other problems.

jeffb 07-24-2009 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoof'22 (Post 216530)
Claudius i know that Canadas health care system isnt THE BEST in the world but going as far as to say that its nothing to be proud of is a little too much. The health care system is great here, it is not the system in the world but defenitely something to be proud of. It doesnt discriminate, atleast not in a way that is harmful to anyone.

"The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income." - This is a problem that is not exclusive to Canada and it is not something that really harms anyone either. It keeps the competetion high which means only the best doctors will get to operate.

I saw a documentery about the U.S healthcare system and they were showing how patients all doped up who were rejected by their insurance for surgery and those patients were thrown in a cab and dropped on the side of the road at another hospital that would care for them. Basically it looked like they were being dumped on the side of the road like grabage.

Like i said our Healthcare system isn't perfect, no healthcare is (anywhere) but i'll take our system over the U.S system anyday.

rapsdabest 08-13-2009 09:38 PM

Fox news isnt the most open news channel. I remember them calling Obama the anti-christ!

Claudius 08-16-2009 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoof'22 (Post 216530)
Claudius i know that Canadas health care system isnt THE BEST in the world but going as far as to say that its nothing to be proud of is a little too much. The health care system is great here, it is not the system in the world but defenitely something to be proud of. It doesnt discriminate, atleast not in a way that is harmful to anyone.

"The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income." - This is a problem that is not exclusive to Canada and it is not something that really harms anyone either. It keeps the competetion high which means only the best doctors will get to operate.

Ummm....I was playing Devil's advocate, I believe if you look at a following post, I actually end up defending it. So....yeah. Congrats?

After just spending a week 'down there' I've never, EVER, seen a country so afraid of having government funded health care. Just walking the streets, it was everywhere and everyone talking about it had so many misconceptions of what it is and it's costs etc. Hell, when I was in line, some people who knew I was a Canadian ended up at first claiming that it was a Canadian conspiracy to infiltrate the US (and these were very WELL educated, high minded Americans) or had some real misconceptions because alot of residents there are getting information for either MSNBC, FoxNews, or CNN, none of which can be labelled newschannels by the way, more like sound bite news. Hell, after speaking on the benefits of government funded healthcare, the retort I found routinely was, "just because it works for you, it won't work for us, because our demographcis are different", which I found odd for two reasons:

a. it was a quote off of CNN
b. what demographics were they using?

So much confusion on this issue, but I guess they're pleased giving large insurance companies such as AIG (HA!) the power to determine if your ELIGIBLE for it or not. Thank God most Americans have jobs....oh wait....

Windex 08-16-2009 11:03 AM

doctors who treat an uninsured patient should be able use it as a tax right off

Claudius 08-16-2009 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex (Post 228257)
doctors who treat an uninsured patient should be able use it as a tax right off

Sorry, what?

How about doctors do what they should do and y'know help people without having financial considerations at the back of their minds?

souternmost raptors fan 08-16-2009 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapsdabest (Post 227267)
Fox news isnt the most open news channel. I remember them calling Obama the anti-christ!

They've also called him racist and compared him to Hitler.

The MVP of West Hollywood 08-17-2009 05:31 PM

Here's my biggest problem with the US system. 30% of all healthcare payment goes to the hospital bureaucracy and all the paperwork jobs, CEOs, etc. that come with having a private system and keeping it under control. Less than 1% of our hospital payment goes to beauracracy.

Secondly in America's system people don't go to the hospital unless it's absolutely necessary and often too late. This is because of how much it costs. You know how people argue one of the faults of a socialized system is that there's more people going in every time they get an itch and small ailment? It's actually just as big a problem the other way. When people don't get these small visits and check-ups, they let their bodies get fucked up before they go in, which leads to much more ER, surgery, etc. which is much more expensive and time-consuming for hospitals.

For both these reasons, along with Americans being far ahead of the world in obesity and teenage pregnancy, as mentioned in the video the US spends MUCH more on healthcare than everyone else, like literally 2x as much. Around 17% of their GDP goes to healthcare, while everyone else including us and France and etc. are around 8-10%. This is why healthcare and insurance is so fucking expensive in the US, the money has to come from somewhere.

The private system would work if it cost the same as a socialized one, just with the payment up front rather than in taxes. The reason it's a fail is Americans are paying literally twice as much or in many cases more. If you cut healthcare prices for Americans in half and then doubled how much we pay for it in taxes, who do you think would be complaining? A single payer system is superior because it's simply cheaper and cleaner to run. Unless you look at in a "but the bureaucracy and insurance companies create more jobs and stimulate the economy!" way, but that's easily balanced out by the companies and people going bankrupt because of their healthcare bills

AR1815 08-18-2009 03:21 PM

Yeah, I really don't understand all the fuss about centralized healthcare. Conservatives just add fuel to the fire by calling this "socialist" (as if being socialist is almost on par with burning babies). Umm, the police, the fire dept., and the post office (a few examples) are all agencies that we pay for.

I haven't read up on this issue at all basically, but I don't see why someone wouldn't support it. As I see it, the hospitals that become "universal" or whatever you want to call it should cater to patients with no surplus money/not too serious injuries. There should also be private hospitals that charge their own rates and have a license to do whatever they want, which should be reserved for people with no time to wait for something like a heart transplant. Granted, I'm not sure if Obama's plan allows for this, but to me it seems like a no brainer; the best of both worlds.

'trane 08-18-2009 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AR1815 (Post 229829)

I haven't read up on this issue at all basically, but I don't see why someone wouldn't support it. As I see it, the hospitals that become "universal" or whatever you want to call it should cater to patients with no surplus money/not too serious injuries. There should also be private hospitals that charge their own rates and have a license to do whatever they want, which should be reserved for people with no time to wait for something like a heart transplant. Granted, I'm not sure if Obama's plan allows for this, but to me it seems like a no brainer; the best of both worlds.

except that this would mean that rich people have access to better and faster health care than poor people, which in my mind is not at all equitable.

LX 08-18-2009 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 229831)
except that this would mean that rich people have access to better and faster health care than poor people, which in my mind is not at all equitable.

Everything has become less equitable over the last three decades, not only down there, but pretty much everywhere. If they actually lessen the gap without making medical treatment entirely equitable, then that would be a big directional change. It also seems to be an impossibility. The rich must get richer it would seem.

eoraptor77 08-18-2009 04:21 PM

Sorry to rain on your parade Clubmed but Turkey has far from the best hospitals in Europe, the most advanced 'best' hospitals are German University hospitals, followed closely by those in Norway and Belgium.
An as for whining for no reason, i already said i appreciated the system we have here in Canada despite its flaws, albeit the biggest flaws are the huge unwarranted salaries being paid out to the heads of regional healthcare, not necessarily the long waiting times.
Medication is not cheap in Canada, a 1 month dose of corticosteriods is over 150$, which is 80% paid for by my insurance, before i had insurance through my job i was unable to have the luxury of this drug and had to rely on ventolin. Is it the same for cancer treatments, i dont know, but it certainly is not 3$.
The healthcare system in Canada is certainly better than many other countries but that does not mean that complaints cannot be made, when hundreds of patients are wrongly diagnosed and misprescribed drugs, as has recently happened with women right across the country in cancer breast scans, people better complain to make sure things are improved, which they will be as a direct result of complaints.

eoraptor77 08-18-2009 05:07 PM

Amen brother..
i guess somebodies got to feel for those without legs, beards and only living till their 27.

'trane 08-18-2009 05:23 PM

.

jeffb 08-18-2009 05:27 PM

Alot of editing going on, eh? lol

eoraptor77 08-18-2009 05:34 PM

It's not ignorance it's indifference, in that why care about something i have no control or influence over and can in no way change.
The constant whinning is tied directly to where i am from, in fact Scottish people are famous for being whinners, dont confuse that with winners, unless of course your talking about curling.
I guess your still young and naive hoping to change the world for the better, the day will come for you also when you realise you have to look out for no.1 and become a sad whinning pessimist like myself, you've even taken the first steps without knowing it by becoming a follower of the Raptors.

Claudius 08-18-2009 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoraptor77 (Post 230006)
It's not ignorance it's indifference, in that why care about something i have no control or influence over and can in no way change.
The constant whinning is tied directly to where i am from, in fact Scottish people are famous for being whinners, dont confuse that with winners, unless of course your talking about curling.
I guess your still young and naive hoping to change the world for the better, the day will come for you also when you realise you have to look out for no.1 and become a sad whinning pessimist like myself, you've even taken the first steps without knowing it by becoming a follower of the Raptors.

What a sad perspective on life. Sorry.

If everyone had such motives, we wouldn't have had such great movements like the Scientific Revolution, the Enlightenment, the French and American Revolutions etc.

Too many people feel that they don't have power and that lies only in the hands of the few. But we're too complacent and lazy to actually do something about it. Frankly, living my life like a selfish drone is something that will never appeal to me.

eoraptor77 08-18-2009 05:50 PM

Theres nothing sad about my life, i just realised i needed to get with the program and conform, and since conforming by returning to school to get my piece of paper i have a great life. I ride Whistler every weekend on a 7000$ bicycle, drive a nice car, have a nice condo with my wife of 10 years.
I've done more than my fair share of revolting against the system and participated in more protest marches than you can even imagine, and did anything come of any of it, the poll tax was still introduced after marching several times and going to many demos. I've been cremogen gassed in Quebec during the Americas Summit while protesting against the illegal occupation and war in Iraq.
So i am sorry Claud but days are a changing and its got nothing to do with laziness, there will be no more revolutions, not in the Western world, not when the government can send out armed police to break up any sign of civil disobedience and use their spin doctors to turn public opinion against anything they deem inappropriate.

'trane 08-18-2009 06:24 PM

no one threatened to ban you club med, get over it. i'll try to find the idiot comment. apologies if we missed it.

edit - i edited that comment already clubmed. if you can find another i'd be happy to edit it as well if you have been offended.

AR1815 08-19-2009 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 229831)
except that this would mean that rich people have access to better and faster health care than poor people, which in my mind is not at all equitable.


Yes, sadly, in Russia this translates to some people getting excellent healthcare, and other just marginal.

But look at it this way: the more you're able to pay for healthcare, the better insurance you can get, the better you are covered. Still, there are 46 million people (not including illegal immigrants) without insurance in the US. That's one out of every 6, about. That entitles them to absolutely absurd hospital bills. Is that equality?

There will always be a gap between the things that the rich can get and the poor can get, unfortunately. If the government was to regulate "socialized" hospitals/doctors, I am sure that they would have to meet certain standards that would allow the poor (and currently uninsured) to receive great healthcare for much, much less. It wont be what Bill Gates is getting, true, but it will be much better than what they have now. Personally, I think people have an obligation to strengthen their society, so I would have no problem with paying extra money just so I know a person who is less fortunate than I can get the aid that he/she needs.

'trane 08-19-2009 01:14 PM

oh absolutely ar1815. that was my point.


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