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-   -   American healthcare system (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f23/american-healthcare-system-9257.html)

jeffb 07-22-2009 12:04 AM

American healthcare system
 
Sen. Sanders puts this Fox news broadcaster in his place about Canadian healthcare as opposed to the American so called health care. Americans are so quick to want to hold on to the Insurance companies running their healthcare, it's really mind blowing to me. Insurance company sole reason for being in healthcare is to reject as many claims as possible. U.S are so stuck in the past...like Bill Maher said last week, "since the walk on the Moon, what has America really acomplished of any real significance?" "The health care system has not really been touched for 50 yrs and is beyond broken"... Our system is far from perfect, but Americans saying they wouldn't want a Healthcare like ours shows how set in their ways they are and uneducated they are about other countries. The worst part is they have so many issues and all they can do is point out faulst with other countries with uneducated half truths, instead of dealing with their own problems.


Febreezy 07-22-2009 12:35 AM

This guy is an idiot.
Fox is a b.s station. Free parking???? :dead:

Mr4thQuarter 07-22-2009 07:06 AM

http://melaniekillingervowell.files....ng?w=299&h=253

I love Bill Maher and Senator Sanders. I know the senator mainly from Real Time too btw.

gdaytday 07-22-2009 08:01 AM

I saw an ad on American TV last night that talked about how terrible our health care system is. Has anyone else seen this?

jeffb 07-22-2009 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdaytday (Post 215549)
I saw an ad on American TV last night that talked about how terrible our health care system is. Has anyone else seen this?

Yeah, it's rediculous. I was watching Larry King last night and some woman was on there and she said, "do you want a system like in Britain & Canada where they can't even choose their own doctor"???? I wanted to call in and set her ugly ass straight.Ignorant assholes. Their healthcare system has been shit for decades now and they are too caught up in political bullshit posturing to get anything done. They need to STFU about everyone else and fix their own problems.

They rank 38th in the world in healthcare.

Claudius 07-22-2009 09:41 AM

I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a bit.

Canada's health care system is nothing to really be proud of, beyond the fact that it's universal.

Our health care system more or less is being run privately under the ideology of being public. For e.g. the cries of more doctors being needed in rural or even urban areas. The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income. Our doctor's really run our system more than we acknowledge.

Secondly, the wait times here are completely two tiered. Athletes, for example CFL players, will typically get smaller wait times. The question has to be asked, why?

I'm just brining up these points, because it's easy to say: "ignorant Americans" etc. However, before we go criticizing other heathcare systems, perhaps we should firstly criticize ours. We largely take it for granted and it's sad as it's a public function which we pay for yet always trumpet as being great despite it's massive shortcomings.

If there were any system to be emulated, I'd likely wish to emulate that of France/Sweden.

Windex 07-22-2009 09:54 AM

the new health system will be worse then Canada's
they're going to kill many insurers by offering lower cost, b/c they're not motivated by profit
secondly, the U.S. has massive debt and can only fund it by raising taxes on everyone
you can keep your healthcare and but you pay for the national healthcare as well, thats great
as much as you complain about the Canadian government it is worse in the U.S.

U.S. has national heath care for war vets which is worse than average Americans use
and they're trillions of dollars in the red by funding medicare and other government funded projects

Claudius 07-22-2009 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex (Post 215568)
the new health system will be worse then Canada's
they're going to kill many insurers by offering lower cost, b/c they're not motivated by profit
secondly, the U.S. has massive debt and can only fund it by raising taxes on everyone
you can keep your healthcare and but you pay for the national healthcare as well, thats great
as much as you complain about the Canadian government it is worse in the U.S.

U.S. has national heath care for war vets which is worse than average Americans use
and they're trillions of dollars in the red by funding medicare and other government funded projects

A. Who cares about the insurance companies, as companies such as AIG are poorly run and contributed to the economic crisis. Also, raising premiums for no apparent reason beyond greed also makes me care little for these companies.

B. Spending for the benefit of the public is not a bad thing if done correctly. Americans are so afraid of taxes yet are willing to enter massive debt for other reasons (see: Iraq war, War on Terrorism, Bailouts etc.; all had high approval ratings)

C. The beautiful thing about the Canadian system is when you actually need care it's non-discriminatory. The fact that 36-38 million Americans don't have access to medical attention is sad and really the entire initiative is looking after the bottom percentile of American population.

D. And the medicare coverage for War Vets is piss poor which is sad seeing how calls to reform it had largely gone unanswered during the previous administration.

Windex 07-22-2009 10:15 AM

I just talk about the insurance companies b/c right now it seems like you would want less unemployment
hundreds of thousands of people are employed by the healthcare/insurance sector, people from secretaries to doctors and many will lose their jobs when they disappear
for a government that is heavily in debt it seems odd that they would want to occur costs worth trillions while losing tax revenue from bankrupt insurance companies
who's going to fill the financial void?

LX 07-23-2009 12:08 AM

If they all got sick it would be a boon to the economy. There's the problem right there. They can't get their minds off of growth when all true economies must work within limits and balance. With health care they want it all even if it costs a ridiculous amount through waste and doesn't make them any healthier. And yes the economy of insurers and pharma goes through the roof. It's a sick society.

Spoof'22 07-23-2009 08:34 PM

Claudius i know that Canadas health care system isnt THE BEST in the world but going as far as to say that its nothing to be proud of is a little too much. The health care system is great here, it is not the system in the world but defenitely something to be proud of. It doesnt discriminate, atleast not in a way that is harmful to anyone.

"The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income." - This is a problem that is not exclusive to Canada and it is not something that really harms anyone either. It keeps the competetion high which means only the best doctors will get to operate.

eoraptor77 07-24-2009 02:24 PM

Just thought i would chip in my 2 cents in response to the ad campaign currently circulating in the US about the Canadian healthcare system, which to a certain extent i do agree with, in that the healthcare system in this country is not something to be particularly proud of, but it is far better than what a large percentage of the American population has access to.

There are so many problems with the healthcare system in this country, its kind of like communism, in theory its all good but in practise its a whole other kettle of fish. There are so many abuses of the system here and such ridiculous waste that it really boggles the mind.

For example last night i was going to the 7/11 and when i get there, outside was 2 ambulances, a fire truck, a police cruiser and police bike, so you think something bigs going down, but no.. some bum stole some mouthwash and a bag of sugar, swallowed the lot an started vommiting an convulsing, an there you go a bill of how many thousands for this one idiot who contributes jack all in taxes but will benefit from the healthcare system that you and I pay for. To be honest do you think this kind of idiocy happens in the States, where there would be no help for this ass..NO.

The head doctor of the Fraser healthboard (Vancouver area) last year recieved a salary in excess of 600,000$, this year he will make more, and his pension, well i can only imagine, probably 80% of his yearly salary, so even in retirement this guys going to be taking close to half a mill.

3 Weeks ago i broke a couple of fingers while DH at Whistler, i had to wait 4 hours to see a doctor, another 2 for X-rays and then another 2 to see the doc again. I was so close to just driving home, which i probably should have since all he did was reposition a dislocated pinky and give me a couple of splints to wear.

I have also been on a waiting list now for close to 2 an half years to get a family doc. This is just a snipet of what i have experienced an know of in my immediate situation, can you imagine how much waste there is country wide in Canada? Further can you imagine what the level of corruption an waste there would be in a system 10 times what we have here?

OK rant over, i still do appreciate what we have here even with its many flaws

Ligeia 07-24-2009 06:24 PM

The fundamental problem in the US is not the profitability of the insurance companies, but the cost of care. Re-distributing that burden amongst the tax payers does nothing to solve the problem, but does add a host of other problems.

jeffb 07-24-2009 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoof'22 (Post 216530)
Claudius i know that Canadas health care system isnt THE BEST in the world but going as far as to say that its nothing to be proud of is a little too much. The health care system is great here, it is not the system in the world but defenitely something to be proud of. It doesnt discriminate, atleast not in a way that is harmful to anyone.

"The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income." - This is a problem that is not exclusive to Canada and it is not something that really harms anyone either. It keeps the competetion high which means only the best doctors will get to operate.

I saw a documentery about the U.S healthcare system and they were showing how patients all doped up who were rejected by their insurance for surgery and those patients were thrown in a cab and dropped on the side of the road at another hospital that would care for them. Basically it looked like they were being dumped on the side of the road like grabage.

Like i said our Healthcare system isn't perfect, no healthcare is (anywhere) but i'll take our system over the U.S system anyday.

rapsdabest 08-13-2009 10:38 PM

Fox news isnt the most open news channel. I remember them calling Obama the anti-christ!

Claudius 08-16-2009 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoof'22 (Post 216530)
Claudius i know that Canadas health care system isnt THE BEST in the world but going as far as to say that its nothing to be proud of is a little too much. The health care system is great here, it is not the system in the world but defenitely something to be proud of. It doesnt discriminate, atleast not in a way that is harmful to anyone.

"The fact of the matter is, many doctors have a monopoly in terms of patients and many feel that if they allow additional doctors into the region, they'll lose patients and therefore income." - This is a problem that is not exclusive to Canada and it is not something that really harms anyone either. It keeps the competetion high which means only the best doctors will get to operate.

Ummm....I was playing Devil's advocate, I believe if you look at a following post, I actually end up defending it. So....yeah. Congrats?

After just spending a week 'down there' I've never, EVER, seen a country so afraid of having government funded health care. Just walking the streets, it was everywhere and everyone talking about it had so many misconceptions of what it is and it's costs etc. Hell, when I was in line, some people who knew I was a Canadian ended up at first claiming that it was a Canadian conspiracy to infiltrate the US (and these were very WELL educated, high minded Americans) or had some real misconceptions because alot of residents there are getting information for either MSNBC, FoxNews, or CNN, none of which can be labelled newschannels by the way, more like sound bite news. Hell, after speaking on the benefits of government funded healthcare, the retort I found routinely was, "just because it works for you, it won't work for us, because our demographcis are different", which I found odd for two reasons:

a. it was a quote off of CNN
b. what demographics were they using?

So much confusion on this issue, but I guess they're pleased giving large insurance companies such as AIG (HA!) the power to determine if your ELIGIBLE for it or not. Thank God most Americans have jobs....oh wait....

Windex 08-16-2009 12:03 PM

doctors who treat an uninsured patient should be able use it as a tax right off

Claudius 08-16-2009 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex (Post 228257)
doctors who treat an uninsured patient should be able use it as a tax right off

Sorry, what?

How about doctors do what they should do and y'know help people without having financial considerations at the back of their minds?

souternmost raptors fan 08-16-2009 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapsdabest (Post 227267)
Fox news isnt the most open news channel. I remember them calling Obama the anti-christ!

They've also called him racist and compared him to Hitler.

The MVP of West Hollywood 08-17-2009 06:31 PM

Here's my biggest problem with the US system. 30% of all healthcare payment goes to the hospital bureaucracy and all the paperwork jobs, CEOs, etc. that come with having a private system and keeping it under control. Less than 1% of our hospital payment goes to beauracracy.

Secondly in America's system people don't go to the hospital unless it's absolutely necessary and often too late. This is because of how much it costs. You know how people argue one of the faults of a socialized system is that there's more people going in every time they get an itch and small ailment? It's actually just as big a problem the other way. When people don't get these small visits and check-ups, they let their bodies get fucked up before they go in, which leads to much more ER, surgery, etc. which is much more expensive and time-consuming for hospitals.

For both these reasons, along with Americans being far ahead of the world in obesity and teenage pregnancy, as mentioned in the video the US spends MUCH more on healthcare than everyone else, like literally 2x as much. Around 17% of their GDP goes to healthcare, while everyone else including us and France and etc. are around 8-10%. This is why healthcare and insurance is so fucking expensive in the US, the money has to come from somewhere.

The private system would work if it cost the same as a socialized one, just with the payment up front rather than in taxes. The reason it's a fail is Americans are paying literally twice as much or in many cases more. If you cut healthcare prices for Americans in half and then doubled how much we pay for it in taxes, who do you think would be complaining? A single payer system is superior because it's simply cheaper and cleaner to run. Unless you look at in a "but the bureaucracy and insurance companies create more jobs and stimulate the economy!" way, but that's easily balanced out by the companies and people going bankrupt because of their healthcare bills


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