A plea - Page 2
Old 11-12-2009, 10:52 AM   #21 (permalink)
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apologies for not responding to this sooner armchair, i didn't see it until now.

your point is well taken, but i think it misses an important piece. i'll get to that in a moment.

i have had a pretty consistent stance against any words used to insult others on this forum. calling other posters idiots or morons drags down the level of dialogue and creates fights instead of discussions. the more it happens, the more people think it is acceptable, and the more likely others are to start doing it. insulting other posters is not tolerated for precisely that reason. it just escalates.

but what about when we are using words like that to take a shot at some one who is not a poster? a player that is consistently making mistakes, or a coach that is making poor decisions, or a writer who has written a bad piece? i see that as a different story because it is criticism of something indirect in relation to this board. i think there are much better ways to make a criticism than to lob an insult at somebody, but i am guilty of doing this for sure. saying 'triano is an idiot for having a bad defensive scheme' is different than saying 'acie is an idiot because he thinks band of gypsies was anything more than an average band'. i say this is different because jay triano is unlikely to come on to this board and start fighting with the person that posted that. maybe that's an inconsistent approach, but to me the only thing i'm trying to protect is the idea that this board is a place for discussion, not for fighting. when we directly insult each other we lose that sense of community and create antagonisms. it would be better if we didn't call triano an idiot either, but i think that may be asking too much of people.

but to the pieces i think your post was missing - words like moron and idiot do have a nasty history. of that there is no doubt. two things, though - the first is that the clinical meaning that you described was not the only meaning. in fact, it was used clinically precisely because it was already established as a word to refer to stupid people, and people with disabilities were considered to be stupid. it was removed from clinical use because it came with baggage, and the equation of these terms with disability was wrong. on the other hand, 'retarded' came with the baggage of meaning 'late developing' or 'delayed' and was adopted for clinical use for that reason, not for implied stupidity. it has become accpeted, clinically speaking, that this is an inappropriate way of describing the disability, so it was dropped as well, but it came with completely different baggage.

secondly, at this point i think 'moron' and 'idiot' have moved a long way from their original meaning. although this is happening with the word retarded as well, and that is your point, it most certainly has not fully taken place. everybody still has a strong sense of what this word means, and that connection to disability is strongly apparent. the most significant reason that i would like to see the use of this word stopped is because there are people with disabilities that come to read these forums, and to have to read the 'so and so is a retard' is degrading and extremely unwelcoming. no one will bat an eye at moron because it has long been part of our lexicon as stupid, not a clinical term for disability. the same cannot be said about retarded. there may come a time when this is the case, but not yet. if we are to create a forum that is welcoming to all people we should be thinking about whether or not the terms we are using are offensive to people that very well may be reading these pages. i can tell you for certain that, when you alreday face plenty of barriers to full inclusion, it is hurtful to come to a place to talk about a passion of yours and find that people are commonly using a word that you find offensive without batting an eye. your marginalization is so deeply entrenched that people don't even realize when they are furthering that marginalization.

so of course i realize that most people using it don't mean anything by it - context is important - i also realize that some people don't care about whether or not you mean it, they are insulted by it anyways because the term itself carries that baggage and has that social implication. and creating an atmosphere where that is acceptable is, to me, tantamount to creating a forum that is not inclusive.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:03 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My understanding from high school psychology class, is that moron and idiot were classifications that indicated something of a need for institutionalization. Having grown up with a sister with Downs Syndrome, and - for a few years in her teens - a cousin with Downs, I can attest that these people enriched my life and never once offered any indication of requiring the mere existence of an institution. Yet institutions did exist where people just like my sister and cousin were left to become "idiots" and "morons", through treatment akin to dogs in puppy mills. It was too easy to equate "retarded" with the same kind of incapacitation that society regarded with the other terms in use. And I think it demeaned them all the more considering they can, and do, become productive, independent individuals with a lot to contribute. So the crime goes beyond medical mistreatment. It becomes something of a crime against humanity, and it was society at large, accepting that there was no place for people of lower intelligence, and tossing around words like retard, that made it possible for so long.

At this point I do feel that it is just a word, because the world has come a long way. But it's use is entirely unnecessary all the same. My sister knows when people stare at her like a circus freak. No words need be spoken. No taunts necessary. She's had to deal with it her whole life while riding the bus, while working in an office, while singing at church. The upside is that all of those things have not been automatically closed off to her to begin with. And to me, when I see or hear the word tossed off too easily, it opens up the possibility that she, or others like her, will face greater obstacles like they did not so long ago.
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Old 11-12-2009, 05:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
secondly, at this point i think 'moron' and 'idiot' have moved a long way from their original meaning. although this is happening with the word retarded as well, and that is your point, it most certainly has not fully taken place. everybody still has a strong sense of what this word means, and that connection to disability is strongly apparent.
Trane, I was not expecting such a lengthy and well thought out response from you, since I wasn't disagreeing with your stance. My post was not intended to challenge the legitimacy of this thread, nor was it intended to suggest that the word "retard(ed)" has "moved a long way" from its original meaning, similar to the way "moron" and "idiot" have. Perhaps my post is misleading in some way. I don't know. I said explicilty that I was not making excuses for that word. It was more my thoughts on how words that carry a lot of baggage get adopted. The overall point I was trying to get at is that people don't always properly asses the affects of several words they use, not just "retard(ed). Like I said, a person who grew up in the 60s might still find "moron" equally offensive. Maybe 50 years from now "retard" will be replaced by some other word, but there will still be older people, who were alive in 2009 and who find it offensive. That's more what I was getting at with context. There are a lot of words people should think about before using. Hence, my question at the end of the post. And I'm starting to think a few people misunderstood the point of the questions. It's not to suggest that "retard(ed)" is okay, since people say "moron" or "idiot", but rather to suggest that perhaps "moron" and "idiot" are not okay, since "retard(ed) is treated with sensitivity.
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Old 11-12-2009, 05:49 PM   #24 (permalink)
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apologies armchairgm. i think i was responding to your post mixed up with several things that have been written here in the past. you are quite right, and my response should not have been directed at you.

as i mentioned, i think any argument that tries to prove someone wrong through reason and evidence is a lot better than one that just labels the person as a moron, an idiot or just stupid. i could be better at that myself.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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My understanding from high school psychology class, is that moron and idiot were classifications that indicated something of a need for institutionalization. Having grown up with a sister with Downs Syndrome, and - for a few years in her teens - a cousin with Downs, I can attest that these people enriched my life and never once offered any indication of requiring the mere existence of an institution. Yet institutions did exist where people just like my sister and cousin were left to become "idiots" and "morons", through treatment akin to dogs in puppy mills. It was too easy to equate "retarded" with the same kind of incapacitation that society regarded with the other terms in use. And I think it demeaned them all the more considering they can, and do, become productive, independent individuals with a lot to contribute. So the crime goes beyond medical mistreatment. It becomes something of a crime against humanity, and it was society at large, accepting that there was no place for people of lower intelligence, and tossing around words like retard, that made it possible for so long.

At this point I do feel that it is just a word, because the world has come a long way. But it's use is entirely unnecessary all the same. My sister knows when people stare at her like a circus freak. No words need be spoken. No taunts necessary. She's had to deal with it her whole life while riding the bus, while working in an office, while singing at church. The upside is that all of those things have not been automatically closed off to her to begin with. And to me, when I see or hear the word tossed off too easily, it opens up the possibility that she, or others like her, will face greater obstacles like they did not so long ago.
Yes, "moron" and "idiot" were classifications used to determine institutionalization. It's my understanding that the manner in which they were used can very a little from one geographic region to the next, as well as time period. You're absolutely right, the people put in these institutions did not need to be there. Unfortunately, in some cases the families actually wanted their relatives placed in "care." I met a couple of older people in their 80s who were institutionalized as "morons" before the second world war (one is actually dead now). However, they didn't even suffer from any dissabilities. And when I say that, I mean they clearly had above average intelligence. They were simply deemed "morons" due to their supposedly innapropriate behaviour, which was erroneously viewed as a product of their intelligence. These classifications, and institutionalization, messed with the lives of a broad range of people. I agree, society can do better than institutionalization.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Yep - there is a lack of honesty with a society that wants to hide away those that make us feel uncomfortable for one reason or another. That's one thing that really stood out for me when I traveled in India. There are a lot of freaky people there, but they don't get shuffled off into some dark corner. Then, at the same time they have this whole class that isn't supposed to make contact with anyone, based solely on birth. And the whole gender gap which can be outrageous to the point of women being almost literally invisible. Thankfully that kind of stuff is changing there. The overall diversity is pretty incredible.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:51 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:27 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Hi everyone.

I am extending a hand out to the members of this board with a plea. I hope you take a moment to consider this. I am well aware that this is a message board and people have the right to say what ever they want. That said, this has always been a civil board where many of us came to get away from the oftentimes childishness of internet chat rooms.

With that framework as a background, I am asking people to consider the use of the word 'retarded', both here and in their every day lives. This label is a frustrating word in the first place, but my objection is specifically about how it is often used to mean stupid. Sentences like "so-and-so is retarded", or "that play/decision/idea is retarded" are both offensive, unthoughtful and in poor taste.

Say stupid if you mean stupid, but to say 'retarded' is to further denigrate people with intellectual disabilities who already face plenty of barriers for full participation and inclusion in 'normal' society. This word has no place in civil discourse, and although this is just a message board, I ask that you consider the impact of the words you use wherever you use them. This is no different from faggot, nigger or any other label used to discriminate against a segment of our society.

Do what you will, it is within your right to do so, but please take a moment to consider what it would be like for those who might be extremely offended by your word use. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
One thing I love about this board is that the moderators give us the freedom to post how we feel fit, within reason. I don't think people always appreciate this because they haven't been to enough of these boards to see the difference. The people here have it right.

Oh and I agree with trane on this above message. The use of those words make you sound ignorant and they're offensive. You're not helping yourself or anyone by using them.
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Yeah man.

Check it out.
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Old 04-05-2010, 07:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I just read this. I may have done this before...

my bad.
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Old 04-05-2010, 07:52 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Hehe, this has nothing to do with this thread, but I think Apollo's status is pretty funny.
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Old 04-05-2010, 08:51 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I totally agree and believe this site could be more civil in the language it uses.
Even the classification of Euro's I think individuals should be treated as individuals not classified as a group.
The use of some words such a gay, retarded etc do not belong in any civilized discussing.
It is difficult at times being a minority for any reason but when it comes to mental, racial or sexual discrimination it shouldn't tolerated.
Most of us have never been a minority and don't have the sensitivity on this area.
The name I used Lao Wai means foreigner in Chinese and has both good and bad meanings.

Please respect Tranes wishes.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:04 PM   #33 (permalink)
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This is true, my bad.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:06 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I'm in on this.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:07 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'll try to avoid it, but words are just words, no need to take such personal offence to them, regardless of what the word is.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:26 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I'll try to avoid it, but words are just words, no need to take such personal offence to them, regardless of what the word is.
Words hurt man.

It may not mean too much for one person, but can mean a lot to the next.

Using the example "retarded": most people use it in conversation to mean dumb or something along the lines. Really, it's for people with mental disabilities. Are people with mental disabilities stupid? That's what the usage is implying.
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Words hurt man.

It may not mean too much for one person, but can mean a lot to the next.

Using the example "retarded": most people use it in conversation to mean dumb or something along the lines. Really, it's for people with mental disabilities. Are people with mental disabilities stupid? That's what the usage is implying.
Its just my personality and way of looking at things I guess. But again I'm not gonna change the way I am at all, I'm not going to go out of my way to say anything negative like that, but if it happens, it happens. Theres no reason for anyone to get mad over words, unless of course im directly insulting them, or the family member it pertains to.

Its people taking offence to everything these days that causes all this stupid censorship and everything becoming derogatory... I'm not saying to go out of your way to be an ass, but if it happens it happens.

Again, this is really just my opinion, argue and hate it all you want, it won't change. Also again, I don't plan to go out of my way to say things people dislike either.
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:30 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Chiggmo you're right that the intent behind the words is the most important thing. But there is a lot of habitual use of a word like "retard" where the person using it just has no clear idea of the intent that might be taken. Much of this thread has been about clarifying that, and trying to promote some understanding, rather than making a case for censorship.

And forget about any particular word - there is no room here for any kind of behavior that is purposefully derogatory. That goes to something as casual as calling people idiots for some point they have made which you dislike. It's unnecessary and only weakens any opposing argument, and most importantly, usually leads to a stupid pissing contest. So, if you were to blurt out something about what I said as being fucking retarded, I would not hold you in some completely low regard due to using that word, being able to understand that it was just blurted out. But I would draw attention to how the word can be taken, even if not intended, and most importantly, draw attention to the need to stay away from the actual intent of needlessly disrespecting any posters here, no matter what the words used may be.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:00 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Chiggmo you're right that the intent behind the words is the most important thing. But there is a lot of habitual use of a word like "retard" where the person using it just has no clear idea of the intent that might be taken. Much of this thread has been about clarifying that, and trying to promote some understanding, rather than making a case for censorship.

And forget about any particular word - there is no room here for any kind of behavior that is purposefully derogatory. That goes to something as casual as calling people idiots for some point they have made which you dislike. It's unnecessary and only weakens any opposing argument, and most importantly, usually leads to a stupid pissing contest. So, if you were to blurt out something about what I said as being fucking retarded, I would not hold you in some completely low regard due to using that word, being able to understand that it was just blurted out. But I would draw attention to how the word can be taken, even if not intended, and most importantly, draw attention to the need to stay away from the actual intent of needlessly disrespecting any posters here, no matter what the words used may be.
Ya and I understand that completely, and don't plan to be purposely ignorant. Was just saying how I look at the whole situation
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:19 PM   #40 (permalink)
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triano picks this game to put alabi in, really jay?
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